*newbie* Concertina Player Wants Some Help

[Dark_Templar]

Well now.

 

Firstly let me say hello to everyone. I am a newbie to the concertina world. Shows how much people know about it, for when I told my friends, only one of them knew (vaguely) what it was.

 

Both my father and I were going to buy the Stagi 48 button English, but as the JACK Baritone and Jackie Treble concertina were a good deal cheaper, we went for them.

 

I know these instruments are the cheapest 30 key concertinas you can buy, but they aren't that well made or finished. Also, the JACK is a little vibey and breathy on the lower keys. I'm wondering if the Stagi's are actually worth buying, but I'll get them off of Ebay, as I am not spending £400 odd on them.

 

The nice people at www.the-music-store.co.uk even gave us £40 off, so it only cost us £370 odd + we bought the Easy Peasy book of music.

 

We have both known about this instrument for a while. My dad is very much into folk music and sea shanties/chanties himself. We love stuff like Sharpe and Hornblower. I've known about them because when I was a small kid (well smaller really) I had the pleasure of hearing one played by some small band who visited my school.

 

I know one piece of music that I managed to learn (basic melody) on the piano, which I can now play on my JACK. This is stand by me. Pretty simple.

 

CC / GBCC / GAA / GAA / AGFF / FAGG / GBCC / GBCC - repeat until you get sick of it.

 

I would like to know:

 

1) Where I can get some actual Sea Shanties/Chanties for the concertina. preferably in book form

2) If anyone knows how to play the theme tune for Spongebob Squarepants (Hey, it may be a sad cartoon but the tune is still fairly nautical)

 

3) If there is anyone in N.W. London (Borehamwood, Burnt Oak, Harrow, Edgware etc) who is interested in forming a small group, as there isn't one around there yet.

 

4) Does anyone actually know what layout the Stagi's use, or if there is a finger/key chart available

 

If anyone can help me, or is interested, I would be very grateful.

 

Oh - one other thing. If the English is supposed to be the better system, why is it that most of the "companies", if you can call them that, seem to build more Anglo's then English concertinas?

 

Many thanks.

 

Russell

Edited January 31, 2006 by Dark_Templar

[Dark_Templar]

Oh yes....

 

Just went onto Concertina Connections website to look up the JACK and JACKIE. Thought I would look at the "Better quality" Wakker instruments.

 

I don't know if all Baritones would sound like the Wakker, but if they do, it is no wonder most companies don't make the instrument in this range, unless someone asks for it.

 

I won't buy another baritone, maybe a Tenor - If someone who can really play it could post an MP3 of a good Tenor, preferably of an A.C. Norman, as they are the only company in England who make English concertinas that can fall into my maximum budget for the future.

 

Thanks.

 

Huh?

[Richard Morse]

If the English is supposed to be the better system, why is it that most of the "companies", if you can call them that, seem to build more Anglo's then English concertinas?

I'll leave your other questions for the nonce... but to answer this one (except for the "better" part which can be very subjective) - Most "companies" make anglos because they are easier to make and because there is more demand for anglos. Also, many "companies" are simply individual people who are particularly keen on Irish traditional music (as expressed by the concertina), and as the "traditional" Irish concertina is anglo....

[Dark_Templar]

If the English is supposed to be the better system, why is it that most of the "companies", if you can call them that, seem to build more Anglo's then English concertinas?

I'll leave your other questions for the nonce... but to answer this one (except for the "better" part which can be very subjective) - Most "companies" make anglos because they are easier to make and because there is more demand for anglos. Also, many "companies" are simply individual people who are particularly keen on Irish traditional music (as expressed by the concertina), and as the "traditional" Irish concertina is anglo....

 

 

I'll leave your other questions for the nonce? What's that supposed to mean????

 

Righty ho. Was just wondering. These Wakker instruments aren't bad though, but I am looking forward to being able to place an order, and finally get, a much better instrument. My dad says he'll probably keep the Jackie, so I'll either sell the Baritone or give it to him, either way I'll not particulary miss it.

 

What I find hard to do is hold it in the correct way. The little finger metal bit (whatever it is called) isn't in the most comfortable places for me, even though I have small, chubby hands.

 

Anyway.

 

If anyone can answer my ORIGINAL questions... please do!

Edited January 31, 2006 by Dark_Templar

[Boney]

I don't think the Stagis are any better than the Jackie (I haven't tried the Jack). The quality control is not as good, at best you'll get an instrument which is about the same. To get a better instrument, you'd have to get a restored vintage concertina, or a mid-level concertina like the Button Box's "Albion" English.

 

English and Anglo appeal to different kinds of people with different desires, what made you decide English is "better"? They have different strengths and limitations.

[m3838]

Don't be so correct.

Walk the guy through.

[Ken_Coles]

I'll leave your other questions for the nonce? What's that supposed to mean????

 

If anyone can answer my ORIGINAL questions... please do!

 

Russell, I'm sure Rich did not mean to be flip. He is known here as one of the larger makers of concertinas (both English and anglo, though ironically what he set out to make was duets!), so he made a comment on that particular topic. Be patient with us, there are folks here who can address all your questions, and this community is generally very helpful. One exception is whether (or why) English or anglo is the "better system." Such a question has no resolution, and as one of the administrators here I'd like to see folks stick instead to explaining how they play various systems, what they consider strengths and weaknesses of their chosen system, how they might change it (a favorite sport of anglo players), and so on. They both have their uses, or they wouldn't both still be here after more than 150 years.

 

I don't know of any shanty books specifically for concertina - not enough of us to make a market! Here on the U.S. side of the pond, Stan Hugill's book (available from Mystic Seaport Press in Connecticut) is one known reference with some jolly good lyrics. I didn't really learn any shanties until I started going to Tom Hall's Friday session in New Hampshire - the most fun way to learn them is definitely by ear. Perhaps someone in your area will have suggestions of similar, local opportunities.

 

Ken

[Dark_Templar]

Thanks guys (and gals probably) for posting replies.

 

What made me choose English. Well, I was going for the Stagi Anglo from Music Megastore, as it is a lot cheaper than buying it from Hobgoblin.

 

Then, after reading all the contradictory information on here, and its amazing how many opinions there are, even though the majority seem to say the English is better. I decided to phone the-music-store. I spoke to Hugh there, who gave my number to Gill Noppen-Spacie, who had a good ol chin-wag with my father.

 

WE asked them why everyone says that the Stagi's are rubbish, and Hugh said "Basically, it is because they are rubbish!" This seems to be because they don't hold their value, and that apparently they sound terrible!

 

* I had a road traffic accident on the 31st of October 05, when I was on a motorcycle, a brand new one where you can't turn the lights off. A young lady driver with her sister pulled out on me with literally 2 feet to spare, and I couldn't, didn't, have time to stop.

 

This has resulted in me having had a broken Tibial cup (head), a damaged foot and a busted wrist. All have healed nicely 'according' to the Doctors at the hospital. Even though they still hurt and that I have nerve damage in my leg. Anyway, this has also bu**ered up my finances.

 

I made the mistake of buying expensive instruments before. I took up the guitar 3 & 1/2 years ago. I bought a Gibson Les Paul with a case from theflyingpig. This cost me about £700. After a couple of months, I realised that it was to heavy for me, and that the neck was to deep for my little hands. Sold it at a big loss.

 

Bought a Fender, and again, couldn't get on with it. I also bought an Ibanez Talman, and after a while sold that. Because I am a Queen fan, when Burns brought the Red Special replica out I bought that. It has been sitting in its case for a year or so. This experience cost me the best part of £1200. After the 3 years, and many hours of practice, I could barely play better than someone who had been playing for a few weeks. I gave it up as a failure.

 

They suggested, on the basis that I can't afford a Vintage Concertina to go for the Jack or Jackie. We went for one of each as my father and I wan't to play them together, and having one of each gives you a better overall range.

 

I wouldn't say don't buy a JACK, but I wouldn't recommend it either.

 

Button Box would be OK if I lived in the U.S.A. especially as the Yanks get a better price for the instruments then us Brits.

 

However, I would rather not buy an Albion, as it costs a fortune. I'm not privileged enough to be able to just spend money like this. Also, all the advice about taking someone who knows how to play etc etc is fine, if you know someone, but I don't, so couldn't.

 

 

I went by all the information I could actually understand on here, as I am not very musically inclined (as above).

 

Also, I have been told that the English can play music written for both the English and the Anglo, but the Anglo cannot play music written for the English. So that made my mind up.

 

Oh thank you Ken Coles. I had a suspicion that Mr Morse was the Concertina Maker. I'll let you all know now that I won't buy a concertina from him. I had thought about the Albion, but not now. My half brother's name is Ryan Morse, and he used to speak to me in the same way, and I hated him for it, and so I won't take it from anyone else.

 

Mr. Morse, has lost one potential client. Maybe I am not a great lover of Irish Folk etc etc etc, but when someone has to be flippant, and rather rude with that nonce remark, then he doesn't deserve to have any customers. Now, maybe one customer might not matter, but that means that the £1500 I might have spent on the Albion will go into another persons pocket.

 

If he had been here in the UK, and he had said what he did to my face, I would have uttered two words to him, and the second one might very well have been "OFF".

 

I am new to the concertina, and I don't need serious players discouraging me. I prefer rock and roll myself, but I liked the sound of the Stagi when I went to Hobgoblin, and decided to buy an instrument. It is the first one where I have been able to play something on it within a few hours of having it. So I should be encouraged, not mocked.

 

Lastly, can anyone tell me what the actual difference is between the English and a Duet is. E.G. what styles of music can you actually play on the Duet.

 

 

Thanks people.

 

Russell

 

 

Oh another question I would like answered.

 

Why does the English have such a different way of holding the Instrument? Would the Anglo system of a wrist strap not work just as well?

 

Thats the problem for me Ken. I live in London, and there aren't any actualy Folk clubs here. You get some Irish "bands" in the various Irish pubs in and around London, but none of them have a concertina player.

 

There are only one or two Music shops in London that I sell concertinas, and the only one I know of is Hobgoblin.

 

If I lived up North, or in Ireland, I wouldn't have such a big problem getting the help I need.

 

It's actually a pain in the backside!

 

Oh if only I could win the lottery. I could make my own business and get all this stuff and make it available!

[Dark_Templar]

Thanks again to m3838.

 

this link

 

http://www.concertina.net/goran_ergonom.html

 

Yes, I actually agree with some of this. As a new player I may not have an actual opinion, or will probably be told that I don't know anything about the instrument. Or even that the makers have had nearly 200 years experience.

 

I agree with the post on the above link because I find the Instrument is uncomfortable, especially the thumb strap and little finger plate.

 

I find that sitting in a Computer chair with my right elbow on the arm and my left elbow resting on my ample stomach allows me to play it easier, especially with a couple of reams of paper (while still wrapped) under my feet is good for me.

 

I can't play it at all well from the knee/resting position.

[Boney]

The concertina is a bit of a niche instrument, so naturally it's going to be a bit more difficult to get information about them, and to find people who can help you with them. You'll need a bit of patience.

 

I have been told that the English can play music written for both the English and the Anglo, but the Anglo cannot play music written for the English. So that made my mind up.

I wouldn't say that...there are certainly arrangements for the Anglo that can't be played on the English. If you're talking about single-line melodies (no chords), you can pretty much play whatever you want on either of them (if you have a 30-button Anglo). The main difference isn't what you can play on them, it's in the different fingering patterns and feel of the instruments.

 

Mr. Morse, has lost one potential client. Maybe I am not a great lover of Irish Folk etc etc etc, but when someone has to be flippant, and rather rude with that nonce remark, then he doesn't deserve to have any customers.

I'm not sure I understand the problem...it seemed to me he was just answering a part of your question, implying that he might respond to more later.

 

Lastly, can anyone tell me what the actual difference is between the English and a Duet is. E.G. what styles of music can you actually play on the Duet.

On a duet, it's easier to play independent parts, such as a bassline and a melody at once, or a melody with chords beneath it. You'd be playing higher notes (mainly the melody) with the right hand, and lower notes (usually accompaniment) on the left, as opposed to the hands sharing notes between them like the English. The English will more easily play fast and supple melodies without changing your hand position as much (if you're comfortable with splitting up the melody between hands).

 

I wouldn't jump right into an expensive instrument. You can't find one much better than a Jackie without spending a lot more money. I agree it's a bit clunky and not as nice sounding as higher-end instruments, but it's certainly good enough for learning on.

[Dark_Templar]

The concertina is a bit of a niche instrument, so naturally it's going to be a bit more difficult to get information about them, and to find people who can help you with them. You'll need a bit of patience.

 

I have been told that the English can play music written for both the English and the Anglo, but the Anglo cannot play music written for the English. So that made my mind up.

I wouldn't say that...there are certainly arrangements for the Anglo that can't be played on the English. If you're talking about single-line melodies (no chords), you can pretty much play whatever you want on either of them (if you have a 30-button Anglo). The main difference isn't what you can play on them, it's in the different fingering patterns and feel of the instruments.

 

Mr. Morse, has lost one potential client. Maybe I am not a great lover of Irish Folk etc etc etc, but when someone has to be flippant, and rather rude with that nonce remark, then he doesn't deserve to have any customers.

I'm not sure I understand the problem...it seemed to me he was just answering a part of your question, implying that he might respond to more later.

 

Lastly, can anyone tell me what the actual difference is between the English and a Duet is. E.G. what styles of music can you actually play on the Duet.

On a duet, it's easier to play independent parts, such as a bassline and a melody at once, or a melody with chords beneath it. You'd be playing higher notes (mainly the melody) with the right hand, and lower notes (usually accompaniment) on the left, as opposed to the hands sharing notes between them like the English. The English will more easily play fast and supple melodies without changing your hand position as much (if you're comfortable with splitting up the melody between hands).

 

I wouldn't jump right into an expensive instrument. You can't find one much better than a Jackie without spending a lot more money. I agree it's a bit clunky and not as nice sounding as higher-end instruments, but it's certainly good enough for learning on.

 

 

You see this is where this gets rather annoying - CAN someone please get a definitive guide as to the differences between Anglo, English and Duet. A guide that will tell you how each item plays, what you can actually do with each instrument, and their advantages and limitations over each other, and can the guide be written in such a way so that no one can argue with it.

 

I am very confused with all the opinions floating round.

 

Right, now with regards to what Mr. Morse said - the nonce remark. I don't know what it means in the U.S.A. but over here it is usually used as an insult or slur on someone. Although you won't find that definition, but it goes around more or less as a sort of mummies boy - and some people like to use it to mean worse. I take it America uses it in the definition of "for the present moment" because if you do, why not just speak plain modern English?

 

I know I could have phrased myself better, and was a little abrasive about my first comment about the concertina companies. But I find it remarkable that a company (e.g. Wheatstones) can have a four year waiting list.

 

How many other companies would you happily wait for 4 years to recieve their goods? I bet the answer would really be none.

 

Whats worse, is if someone wanted a couple of their top range Duets and the top range English, they would still have to wait, even though they are spending the best part of £20,000! How many companies would put someone like that off for 4 years?

 

Oh well, I shall apologize to Mr. Morse, and hopefully likewise will occur as it seems there was a misunderstanding. I am sorry, Mr. Morse.

 

Mind you, it's not the first time there has been a misunderstanding between an Englishman and an American!

 

Never mind..........

 

Oh as to your last comment. The JACKIE plays fine, its the JACK that is clunky!!!

 

I know that Ashdown and A.C. Norman are one and the same, but it is a shame that they don make an English system under the Ashdown name.

 

I really want (drool) a system like a Norman, Wheatstone etc etc... Failing that, I would also love to buy a Frank Edgley, I've contacted him a couple of times, and I would really, really love a Curly Maple ended instrument like his top range Anglo.

[spindizzy]

You see this is where this gets rather annoying - CAN someone please get a definitive guide as to the differences between Anglo, English and Duet. A guide that will tell you how each item plays, what you can actually do with each instrument, and their advantages and limitations over each other, and can the guide be written in such a way so that no one can argue with it.

 

If you're better than me you can probably play anything on anything, but when you're starting out ....

 

Anglo tends to play in a naturally bouncy way beacuse of the changes in bellows direction and it's easier to put some chords in your playing. They are designed to play in a few particular keys which is fine for trad music.

 

English is good for playing fast smooth runs and arppeggios (you don't have to change bellows direction to get a particular note so you can play smoothly ) Chords are harder. All keys are possible.

 

Duets have the smooth and any key playing of an English, with easier chords. (melody can be played with the right hand, accompaniement on the left.)

 

That's for when you're starting out........

With practice, you can bounce and play chords on an English, play smoothly and in peculiar keys on an anglo and

do pretty well anything on a Duet. Choice often comes down to what your hands and brain feels best with. I couldn't get going on an Anglo, but found that an English clicked straight away. I've only had a few tries on a Duet (Triumph) and that made sense to me too. If you've played harmonica or melodeon you might take to an Anglo like a duck to water.

 

Cheers

Chris

ps I remember my little fingers causing a lot of pain when I started playing EC...... it goes away eventually, most of us don't need strong little fingers.

 

pps As a Londoner, I would understand "nonce" to mean "In a while" ... it's a bit Shakespearian perhaps, so maybe misunderstanding is an age thing rather than a UK/US thing. (now ponce and nance are different ... )

Edited February 1, 2006 by spindizzy

[JimLucas]

As a Londoner, I would understand "nonce" to mean "In a while" ... it's a bit Shakespearian perhaps, so maybe misunderstanding is an age thing rather than a UK/US thing. (now ponce and nance are different ... )

Specifically, "nonce" means "moment", as in "for the nonce", which many people interpret as meaning "temporarily", though it can also mean "right now".

 

That is the meaning that it has had for several centuries, and as far as I know it is still in current use throughout the English speaking world. I have been told, however, that it has a another particular -- and very local -- meaning among some Londoners, specifically denoting a convicted criminal more formally referred to by a name that sounds like a synonym for "foot scraper". (I won't use the real word here, because I don't want Concertina.net to show up in people's web searches for that word.)

 

So, Dark_Templar, please check your dictionary to verify that Rich was not in any way being insulting or offensive. Then I hope you'll modify your opinion of him accordingly.

[Samantha]

To answer a couple of your original questions, Dark Templar ...

 

A good description of the different types of concertina (English, Anglo and Duet) can be found here.

 

A fingering chart for a 48 button English can be found here. I do not play English system but understand that the Jackie and Jack have fewer than 48 buttons. Even so, their button layout will resemble part of the scheme in that chart. One of the English system players here will be able to help you out with this if you have trouble, I'm sure.

 

I hope this helps, and welcome to concertina.net.

 

Samantha

[Dark_Templar]

Well I've always known nonce as mummies boy, and according to some people I know it is Prison Slang for a sex offender, which is why I took offence.

 

But I have apologized, so that topic is closed.

 

Thanks everyone for getting in on this post. I would like to go to my original Thread.

 

Is there anyone in the Edgware, Burnt Oak, Borehamwood or Harrow area (especially seeing as Herga Music is in or around Harrow) who runs, or has a group where a couple of new players would be welcome?

 

Also, I found some sheet music for Spongebob, which cost me a couple of Dollers. Damn, but the JACK doesn't have a D flat, so instead of it starting D flat D Flat C, it'll have to go C sharp C harp C, and I'm not sure if this'll work...

 

Well, I am watching two 48 key Stagi's on Ebay, and I'll probably pay about 78 - 85 for one, and hopefully less for the other.

 

I spoke with the guy at Hobgoblin today (London store) as I went there for the English Concertina book.

 

He's saying that there is absolutley nothing wrong with the Stagi instrument, and he is shocked (more disgusted to me) that people are saying that it isn't a good instrument!

 

If I get the Stagi's, I'll still use the JACK simply because it is a baritone.

 

Although, if I were to order a Norman, and asked for Baritone, would it still be as slow and breathy as a cheap plywood job?

 

Any thoughts or comments on this?

[Samantha]

...

 

Is there anyone in the Edgware, Burnt Oak, Borehamwood or Harrow area (especially seeing as Herga Music is in or around Harrow) who runs, or has a group where a couple of new players would be welcome?

 

Also, I found some sheet music for Spongebob, which cost me a couple of Dollers. Damn, but the JACK doesn't have a D flat, so instead of it starting D flat D Flat C, it'll have to go C sharp C harp C, and I'm not sure if this'll work......

 

C# and Db are the same note, so your idea will work. D# is the same as Eb. F# is the same as Gb. G# is the same as Ab. A# is the same as Bb. Hope this helps.

 

Here is a list of concertina events, including regular meetings where you might find something within reach.

 

Samantha

Edited February 1, 2006 by Samantha

[Larry Stout]

My wife (a linguist and member of the American Dialect Society) found the misunderstanding on the use of "nonce" here interesting-- and checked with the Oxford English Dictionalry, which gives both meanings and their origins. Language can be trecherous!

 

I have a Gremlin Stagi 48 button EC from Hobgoblin which I started out on. I can't compare it with a Jack or Jackie, since I've never played one of those. I can compare it with my two Wheatstones. The Gremlin arrived in tune, rather stiff, and with buttons which have, over time, gone a bit off the vertical. It is quite a lot heavier and much bigger, and also louder, than my Wheatstone tutor (from 1851). The later Wheatstone (steel reeds, metal ends) that I recently acquired is the loudest and has a more striking "concertina" sound. Both Wheatstones allow for more subtlety in the bellows work and more nuance in the sound I can produce. I've noticed that the Gremlin makes my thumbs tire much more quickly than either of the other instruments, but that may be because I've gotten better at controling the instrument as I've played more and my hands have gotten stronger.

 

The accordian reeds on the Gremlin have a different overtone structure than the steel reeds on the newer Wheatstone and as a result close chords sound a bit mellower on it. I think I'd be more inclined to use it to accompany voice than the metal ended vintage box, but I'm a dance musician, not a singer. The stiffer bellows response and slightly slower speaking of the reeds would make it less desireable foe dance or fast session work.

 

I think my advice would be to learn on the Jackie and then trade it in on a restored vintage box or perhaps a Geuns Wakker. At the beginning you need to get used to holding the instrument steady so you can find the buttons and developing some control of the bellows.

 

larry

[Dark_Templar]

Hi there.

 

thanks. I was looking into buying a Vintage concertina, but in my opinion if I were to spend the serious amount of cash that these things go for, to be honest I would rather buy a new one, or one off, and wait for it.

 

No offence, the old concertinas may be better, but at the end of the day I have always found problems with anything I have bought second hand. This covers guitars and motorcycles.

 

These Vintage instruments are never in the best of nick, even some of the "restored" ones look a little worse for wear, and I wouldn't want to spend money on something old to take it somewhere and risk the chance of it getting damaged or worse, stolen. To find that I can't get another one because they are either all in museums, or are owned by rich people who collect them to have them, not play them.

 

With regards to G. Wakker... The concertinas are not to my liking... I listened to the "better" baritone and the sound file on the concertina connection page has a few too many bad notes in it, but I don't really like them.

 

I'll learn on the Wakker JACK and Jackie, then when I can afford to buy a serious instrument, I will look at my options.

 

And many thanks to Samantha for the previos posting. Only problem is is that my ability to read music from a sheet is comparable to asking a fly about seeing through only two eyes!

 

cheers all