PeterT Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I made an interesting discovery, this week, when taking the reed pan out of my Dipper to cure a "buzzing" reed. Colin designed the reed pan to be at an angle, rather than horizontal, to increase the depth of some reed chambers. I don't know whether this is a common practice with other makers, but I've not seen it before. Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I made an interesting discovery, this week, when taking the reed pan out of my Dipper to cure a "buzzing" reed. Colin designed the reed pan to be at an angle, rather than horizontal, to increase the depth of some reed chambers. I don't know whether this is a common practice with other makers, but I've not seen it before. It is in fact quite common, and is considered to be one of the hallmarks of higher-grade models, including Æolas and Edeophones. The tilt is such that the chambers of the lower reeds are deeper and those of the higher reeds are shallower, more or less in proportion to the other dimensions of the chambers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Read Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I made an interesting discovery, this week, when taking the reed pan out of my Dipper to cure a "buzzing" reed. Colin designed the reed pan to be at an angle, rather than horizontal, to increase the depth of some reed chambers. I don't know whether this is a common practice with other makers, but I've not seen it before. Peter. I believe Frank Edgley has been doing a similar thing. I'm sure Frank can discuss it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterT Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 It is in fact quite common, and is considered to be one of the hallmarks of higher-grade models, including Æolas and Edeophones. Thanks Jim. I'll have to take my screwdriver to sessions in future, just to open up other players' instruments! Regards, Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Edgley Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 RICH: "Tnere are other parameters influencing this air path too: the length of the air path; the size of the outlet hole and how far off it the pad lifts up (which seems should be added to/included with the length of the air travel path); the "ends" of the path (how far beyond the reed tip and pad hole the chamber extends); and the proprtions of the path (ratio of average grith to length)...." FRANK: I agree. The size and shape are influences as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodore Kloba Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Take the universally accepted standard that the free end of the reed is located at the opposite end of the chamber as the outlet pad is and wonder why? The tone and response of the reed changes considerably to less robust and slower acting when you move the outlet hole closer to the free end of the reed - and when directly over it - will sometimes render the reed inable to speak at all. The treble-side piccolo reeds in bandoneons and (which are mounted parallel to the valve board) are usually mounted so that the "press" reeds have their free ends right over the opening, while the "draw" reeds have their free ends away. The rest of the treble reeds are perpendicular to the valve board and with their free ends toward the opening. See this image. Bass reeds and blocks are more like in accordions, with the free ends away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Müller Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Theodore, you might be the man to solve a small mystery for me: I am getting close to the point where I will mount the reeds (accordion reeds (Ups! - running for cover )) in the instrument of my own design. Now, some of the top reeds (Antonelli, "A Mano") have only one valve - so how is it to be placed? 1) The valve facing the "push" side, compression or 2) The valve facing the "pull" - side, suction - awaiting enlightment, /Henrik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodore Kloba Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Now, some of the top reeds (Antonelli, "A Mano") have only one valve - so how is it to be placed? 1) The valve facing the "push" side, compression or 2) The valve facing the "pull" - side, suction Good question! With diatonic instruments, I'd just say put the valve next to the larger of the two reeds, but since you're asking the question, this must not be a diatonic. I'm also guessing the reedplates aren't marked for the "push" side. I opened one of my bandonions and of the keys with the same note push and pull, they either have 2 valves or none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Henrik, I think you have misunderstood the situation... Theodore was talking about the orientation of some reeds being contrary to the way reeds are typically installed. They are typically installed with their free ends *away* from the air path (such that the air must past by the reeds and along the reed's length to the air opening hole. TK informs us that some bandoneons have reeds installed "reversed" such that their free end is next to the air opening hole. Your question is about which way to face a reedplate when only one of the reeds has a valve over it. Such a reed is has two tones and the larger reed is the one with the valve on the other side of the reedplate. The smaller reed doesn't have one because at some point it is counterproductive to have valves on very small reeds. It takes a certain amount of pressure to lift the valves so that a reed will speak, and with so much less going through small reeds this becomes difficult. Also, valves absorb sound - enough so that the higher reeds (which are inherently less loud than larger, lower pitched ones) would sound very muted with a valve (providing that you can get it to sound at all with valve!). ALL very high reeds don't have valves on them. Just where the break is between having a valve or not lies in the quality of the reed, quality of the vavle, and the chamber design/setup. So, back to your question, Henrik - [Which way the reedplate is to be installed]? With the reed tongues furthest from the air opening hole and such that the correct pitched reed will sound with the intended air direction. The location of the valve is immaterial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodore Kloba Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 TK informs us that some bandoneons have reeds installed "reversed" such that their free end is next to the air opening hole.I just started reading Tom Tonon's article to be published by ICA (see this thread on rec.music.makers.squeezebox), which seems to explain why some reeds have to be oriented this way: The chamber dimensions are such that it functions as a quarter-wave resonator (rather than a Helmholz resonator) and the "normal" orientation would put the free end of the reed close to a velocity node of the air vibration (spot where the air velocity is zero), which keeps the reed from starting. BTW, most bandoneons have some reeds in this orientation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Your question is about which way to face a reedplate when only one of the reeds has a valve over it. Such a reed is has two tones and the larger reed is the one with the valve on the other side of the reedplate. Rich, the instrument Henrik is building is an English, not an anglo, so the two reeds should be the same size (and pitch). So it seems that there should be valves on either both sides or none, OR that the reed maker feels that there should be a push-pull difference. Henrik, I think you may need to contact Antonelli with your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 (edited) Henrik, if you are going to install the reeds, I think you may consider: 1. not waxing the reed plates, but securing them with two screws at the centers of short sides, 2. position them so they are snug against each other, no gaps- this will emulate long plate and will probalby help to start reeds faster, add to the overall tonal quality, richness of sound. 3. not getting too concerned with putting the plates on the air-sealing suade cusions, just reasonably well polished wooden reedpan will provide good seal. This is the way my tiny Schweizerorgele is made and the sound, the loudness, air tightness - all are very good. No need for overkills. Edited March 22, 2006 by m3838 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Your question is about which way to face a reedplate when only one of the reeds has a valve over it. Such a reed is has two tones and the larger reed is the one with the valve on the other side of the reedplate.Rich, the instrument Henrik is building is an English, not an anglo, so the two reeds should be the same size (and pitch). So it seems that there should be valves on either both sides or none, OR that the reed maker feels that there should be a push-pull difference. I hadn't realized that it was to be an English. Now I would think that the reedmaker inadvertently forgot to install the other valve - or perhaps did but with insufficient glue and it fell off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 (edited) Henrik, if you are going to install the reeds, I think you may consider:1. not waxing the reed plates, but securing them with two screws at the centers of short sides, I you do that you'll need to make little reedplate-high "blocks" for the non-reedplate side of the screws so that the screws plumb down rather than have a tendency to work off the reedplate. Alternately you can cut a small "V" or "U" in the end of the reeplates to accomodate the screw shank which would give the head more purchase. 2. position them so they are snug against each other, no gaps- this will emulate long plate and will probalby help to start reeds faster, add to the overall tonal quality, richness of sound.A good idea - I've seen many cases where sympathetic vibrations aid other reeds, as well as coupling reedplates and reedbanks to prevent harmonic problems.3. not getting too concerned with putting the plates on the air-sealing suade cusions, just reasonably well polished wooden reedpan will provide good seal.I suggest making the seal as good as possible - BUT - making it such that the reedplate is solidly in contact with the chambers. Plastic/rubber gaskets are terrible (absorb too much energy making the reed weak sounding - plus the pitch of the reed can vary depending on how hard you screw the plate down). Leather gaskets are much better - preferably a very thin split that will crush down to almost nothing. A reasonable alternative is felted paper which will seal well as it crushes down. Wax works incredibly well to secure down AND air seal (the downside is that it takes a lot more skill to install with wax and that this is NOT a good choice if the reedplates snugged next to each other). Edited March 23, 2006 by Richard Morse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Müller Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Rich commenting on Michael's suggestion: ...I you do that you'll need to make little reedplate-high "blocks" for the non-reedplate side of the screws so that the screws plumb down rather than have a tendency to work off the reedplate. Alternately you can cut a small "V" or "U" in the end of the reeplates to accomodate the screw shank which would give the head more purchase... ... Hello, Gentlemen - I am back; been abroad for most of the week. Sorry, that I confused things more by forgetting to state that it is an English: the notes are the same, so you understand my puzzled looks when I saw only one valve. And sorry about sliding of the thread Looking at "real" concertinas' top reeds have made conlude that when they are small enough, there is no reason to have a valve - fairly much common sense. Theodore mentioned 'markings for the push side': when I look at the reed plates, they are in fact marked with a diagonal, punched impression across a corner on one side. Obviously, for reeds with two valves, it has no meaning - a theory could be that Antonelli makes all reeedplates like that, knowing that it only makes sense for diatonics. Pure speculation - I can ask Antonelli, if I get really worked up about it. I am indeed going to attach the reed plates with screws as you suggest, Michael and I have made the screw holes 'more than close' to the plates, so I will need small "U"-cuts in the plates, as you suggest, Rich - the whole valve-no-valve thing is easily tested, isn't it? Flip the reedplate either way and listen. It's only on two notes, I think. Seal - I am sealing, but with the thinnest of thin leather - like paper really (photos will be up eventually). From my years around pro-accoustics, I know that anything soft and pliable will steal acoustic energy, so I hope that this material is a good compromise. We'll see (sorry: hear ) Finally, to drift back into the thread: it also confirmed my own theory about which end being closest to the air stream: reed tongue or reed mount. AgainC.net has proven its value! Yikes - it's snowing again /Henrik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Yikes - it's snowing again Was doing that over here earlier, but then it turned to sleet, and now it's stopped. So... thread drift, but no snow drifts today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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