Performance

[m3838]

Or manic obsession?

 

No doubt something along those lines! But what glorious maddness!

 

 

 

The Quebcois fiddle virtuoso Jean Carigan with Le reve du diable

 

 

His own brand of crazy, God rest his soul.

 

Rostropovich, Yasha Heyfetz, Jean Carigan, and Glenn Gould - what a company to stay away from. (for sanity reasons)

[Stephen Chambers]

Or manic obsession?

Rostropovich, Yasha Heyfetz, Jean Carigan, and Glenn Gould - what a company to stay away from. (for sanity reasons)

Actually, my comment was only about Glenn Gould's "work ethic", or style of practicing.

 

But if you're naming names, please give me Jordi Savall, Stéphane Grappelli , Michael Coleman and Gustav Leonhardt instead. I've no time for "virtuosos" who are more important than the music itself, give me musicality any day...

 

It's the main theme of my favourite film, Tous les Matins du Monde.

[Stephen Chambers]

I'm a little dismayed though, do you really don't hear the difference between Fayre Four Sisters' "Bumblebee" and the Russian Bayanist's rendition?

There are two:

1. technical precision. One just plays it, the other really tries hard to hit all the notes.

2. dynamics applied. One expresses the feeling by accentuating the prazes, clearly separating the themes, the other just presses ahead.

But why should I mention it, don't you guys hear it? I suspect there is a little bit of ideology involved.

Maybe so. To me the bayan player, though no doubt possessed of good technique, simply looks bored and sounds boring, and the orchestra even more so.

 

On the other hand, the Fayre Four (recorded with cruder technology in 1934) sound like they were taking flight, and so was the bumblebee!

[m3838]

Or manic obsession?

Rostropovich, Yasha Heyfetz, Jean Carigan, and Glenn Gould - what a company to stay away from. (for sanity reasons)

Actually, my comment was only about Glenn Gould's "work ethic", or style of practicing.

But if you're naming names, please give me Jordi Savall, Stéphane Grappelli , Michael Coleman and Gustav Leonhardt instead. I've no time for "virtuosos" who are more important than the music itself, give me musicality any day...

 

Hmm.

I meant to include in the list of top maestros a fiddler, just to make sure to avoid accusation in denigrating Folk music, when my case will be investigated.

But interesting, you don't think Rostropovich and Heyvetz are more musical, then they are technical?

The reason I was so set on Rostropovich is his great and unique musicality, very manly approach, very simple, without any make-believe niceties.

Glenn Gould in his recorded interview mentioned "Piano playing", and he meant it as a negative comment. I'm sure he worked hard to overcome this cheap emulation of emoting - with fake diminuendos, pauses, and spikes of volume, followed by sudden calm. I find Gould style is very close to Rostropovich in it's simple, no-noncense feel. And also very musculine, I think it's rare.

[Stephen Chambers]

Hmm.

I meant to include in the list of top maestros a fiddler, just to make sure to avoid accusation in denigrating Folk music, when my case will be investigated.

You did (though I guess you know nothing about him?), he was a French-Canadian called Jean Carignan and I met him when he came to Ireland in the '70s, on a pilgrimage to the birthplace of the Irish fiddler Michael Coleman. Carignan had famously taught himself to play in Coleman's style from listening to the one and only 78rpm record that was available to him, like this:

 

Jean Carignan - Crowley's Reel

 

But Coleman was better, and I don't think Jean would have argued with that...

 

But interesting, you don't think Rostropovich and Heyvetz are more musical, then they are technical?

The reason I was so set on Rostropovich is his great and unique musicality, very manly approach, very simple, without any make-believe niceties.

Glenn Gould in his recorded interview mentioned "Piano playing", and he meant it as a negative comment. I'm sure he worked hard to overcome this cheap emulation of emoting - with fake diminuendos, pauses, and spikes of volume, followed by sudden calm. I find Gould style is very close to Rostropovich in it's simple, no-noncense feel. And also very musculine, I think it's rare.

I'm afraid your virtuosos do nothing for me, and I especially dislike the way they mistreat the music of Bach (my favourite composer). I'd much prefer the purer, more heartfelt style of Savall or Leonhardt:

 

Johann Sebastian Bach - Suite for Solo Cello (BWV 1002)

 

Bach - Brandenburg Concerto 5 by Leonhardt

[m3838]

Johann Sebastian Bach - Suite for Solo Cello (BWV 1002)

 

It's very moody, and pretty free with timing. Dark!

Actually it may be my next piece to learn. I have the music, but didn't get the style.

Now I do.

Bach - Brandenburg Concerto 5 by Leonhardt

I saw this one. Remembering the Gould's interview, he was said to play his piano in harpsicords style. Never a pedal!

I guess this piece would be better "mistreated" by Gould's piano, as he had the luxury of dynamics on it.

But I like how you slammed Rostropovich. Yes, he had a definite flavor of Gypsiness to his playing, passionate and powerful His playing reminds me of Anglo Concertina, or push/pull diatonic. He never misses the chance to reverse bowing direction.

It makes his playing very energetic, and it fits my personality.

But don't dismiss musicality of "my" virtuosos".

 

Forgive me ignorance, who was Jim Carignan, the dancing dude or the fiddling?

I found the old guy's dancing is breath taking (note the separate spelling). That what I call dancing!

[Stephen Chambers]

Johann Sebastian Bach - Suite for Solo Cello (BWV 1002)

It's very moody, and pretty free with timing. Dark!

Actually it may be my next piece to learn. I have the music, but didn't get the style.

Now I do.

Savall has plenty of style, and from the period too. He's a Catalan, like Pau Casals who showed that the cello suites weren't just "bowing exercises".

 

Bach - Brandenburg Concerto 5 by Leonhardt

I saw this one. Remembering the Gould's interview, he was said to play his piano in harpsicords style. Never a pedal!

I guess this piece would be better "mistreated" by Gould's piano, as he had the luxury of dynamics on it.

I can't agree with you there. For me this performance of the cadenza by Leonhardt is quite breathtaking. It's the best I've ever heard, and his dynamic control is remarkable, making the piece sound passionate when it tends to sound "mathematical" in other hands.

 

Rostropovich ... had a definite flavor of Gypsiness to his playing, passionate and powerful ... It makes his playing very energetic, and it fits my personality.

This would be more my kind of "gypsiness", a favourite Django Reinhardt performance:

 

Django-J'attendrai

 

But don't dismiss musicality of "my" virtuosos".

Sorry, I guess that's a touch of colloquial Hiberno-English creeping in, I didn't mean that they were specifically yours...

 

Forgive me ignorance, who was Jim Carignan, the dancing dude or the fiddling?

I found the old guy's dancing is breath taking (note the separate spelling). That what I call dancing!

Jean was the fiddler.

 

You'd still see spontaneous outbreaks of old-style step-dancing like that sometimes at the sessions I'd go to in Ireland (though that was in Canada, in 1975).

Edited July 21, 2008 by Stephen Chambers

[michael sam wild]

Can I ask what IMHO means ? Please let me know PDQ or ASAP

Mike AKA Wildy

[Stephen Chambers]

Can I ask what IMHO means ?

Usually either "in my humble opinion" or "in my honest opinion".

 

Otherwise, International Medical Health Organisation.

 

AFAIK

[Mark Evans]

I'm afraid your virtuosos do nothing for me, and I especially dislike the way they mistreat the music of Bach (my favourite composer). I'd much prefer the purer, more heartfelt style of Savall or Leonhardt:

 

Johann Sebastian Bach - Suite for Solo Cello (BWV 1002)

 

Bach - Brandenburg Concerto 5 by Leonhardt

 

Leonhardt at the harpsichord....what a delight! I have known him only in the context as a conductor and his recording of the B minor mass with La Petite Band has been my touchstone for many years now. Tenor John Elwes performance of the "Benedictus" set a standard I have always aspired to reach. Needless to say I have come up well short of his, La Petite Band and Leonhardt's performance.

 

While spending most of my adult life in the period performance only camp, I have in the last few years been able to re-visit Gould, Rostropovich and a number of others and appreciate their work. Of course I will always prefer the harpsichord to a fortepiano and certainly stand with the gut stringed cello for the suites.

 

Savall's playing is impressive, beautiful and deep.

 

I offer for consideration Phoebe Carrai's recording of the Suites. Unfortunately I have no YouTube to offer and the link to listen is down from her recording company. I love the sound of her instrument, an Italian cello from 1690, maker unknown. She's a true free spirit and her insights have moved me to tears many times. In honesty I admit a bias as she is my wife's dear friend and collaborator.

http://www.jsbach.org/carraisixcellosuites.html

Edited July 21, 2008 by Mark Evans

[Mark Evans]

You did (though I guess you know nothing about him?), he was a French-Canadian called Jean Carignan and I met him when he came to Ireland in the '70s, on a pilgrimage to the birthplace of the Irish fiddler Michael Coleman.

 

Wow...That must have been something Stephen. Dominique, who never has paid a lot of attention to Quebcois dance music will come in the computer room to listen when I'm playing a Carignan YouTube. He holds a central position in their culture.

 

My personal favorite was a largely unknown fiddler, Jean-Louis Labbe who performed mostly in his home parish. There are very few recordings and this YouTube excerpt of a concert given in his parish church is a version of Reel du Point-au-Pic I find smooth and flawless. It took me hours to steal every lick I could from this version.

 

He was a shy, modest man who lived a quite good life and made excellent music for the people he loved.

 

Edited July 21, 2008 by Mark Evans

[m3838]

I guess this piece would be better "mistreated" by Gould's piano, as he had the luxury of dynamics on it.

I can't agree with you there. For me this performance of the cadenza by Leonhardt is quite breathtaking. It's the best I've ever heard, and his dynamic control is remarkable, making the piece sound passionate when it tends to sound "mathematical" in other hands.

Harpsichords don't have dynamic control per se, except for the stops, which weren't used in the clip recording. What do you mean?

Gould did record with Harpsichords too, but he felt a little constrained by it, though his treatment Bach has definite Harpsichord style to it.

Rostropovich ... had a definite flavor of Gypsiness to his playing, passionate and powerful ... It makes his playing very energetic, and it fits my personality.

This would be more my kind of "gypsiness", a favourite Django Reinhardt performance:

 

Django-J'attendrai

 

Saw that one too. It's in my favorites.

I guess it explains the difference between East and West

Here's my kind of "gymsiness"

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=RvzcMiYVGqU

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=suGSfczxw4M

[RatFace]

Totally off topic now...

 

Johann Sebastian Bach - Suite for Solo Cello (BWV 1002)

 

Actually this is from one of the solo violin sonatas/partitas, but thanks for the link.

 

Strangely... I _really_ dislike this playing, even though I was terribly excited just before I clicked on the link (by chance I watched Tous les Matins du Monde on Friday). He totally destroys the rhythm (this clip is from the variation on the Sarabande from the Bm partita, which, if my memory is right, Dave Townsend played at the first ever Concertinas at Witney), which I find horribly stilted and unnatural (bordering on painful) here.

 

Reminds me of an earlier big "debate" (on playing dance music for listening)...

[m3838]

Ouch, the typos!

his treatment Bach has definite Harpsichord style to it.

"...his treatment of Bach..."

 

Here's my kind of "gymsiness"

"gypsiness"

[Stephen Chambers]

... he was a French-Canadian called Jean Carignan and I met him when he came to Ireland in the '70s, on a pilgrimage to the birthplace of the Irish fiddler Michael Coleman.

Wow...That must have been something Stephen.

It was Mark, though to be honest I'd never heard of him (or Quebecois music ) before that time - I was simply there in Gurteen for the Michael Coleman Memorial weekend, and to meet some of the great South Sligo players. He was an unexpected bonus.

 

The British TV arts programme Omnibus made a film about his visit, called The Pilgrimage Of Ti-Jean, which was first aired on Wednesday 30th August, 1978. It was presented by Dolores Keane and John Faulkner and, though I haven't seen it in a long time now, I believe it still gets shown every year at the South Sligo Summer School in Tubbercurry.

 

He holds a central position in their culture.

Like his hero Michael Coleman here then.

 

My personal favorite was a largely unknown fiddler, Jean-Louis Labbe who performed mostly in his home parish. There are very few recordings ... He was a shy, modest man who lived a quite good life and made excellent music for the people he loved.

That sounds like a lot of the great old players here too. I'll have to check him out.

[Stephen Chambers]

Johann Sebastian Bach - Suite for Solo Cello (BWV 1002)

Actually this is from one of the solo violin sonatas/partitas, but thanks for the link.

I know, but that's the title of the YouTube clip, which I used for the link. The movement (played similarly) seems quite popular with guitarists too.

 

Strangely... I _really_ dislike this playing, even though I was terribly excited just before I clicked on the link (by chance I watched Tous les Matins du Monde on Friday). He totally destroys the rhythm (this clip is from the variation on the Sarabande from the Bm partita, which, if my memory is right, Dave Townsend played at the first ever Concertinas at Witney), which I find horribly stilted and unnatural (bordering on painful) here.

 

Reminds me of an earlier big "debate" (on playing dance music for listening)...

Only it was never "dance music", but rather a "musical form" or "convention", and I think Bach would have been rather taken aback by anyone thinking otherwise, or expecting it to be played as if for dancing.

Edited July 22, 2008 by Stephen Chambers

[Stephen Chambers]

Harpsichords don't have dynamic control per se, except for the stops, which weren't used in the clip recording.

Not even the stops, which are only to change the registration being used (and notice how Leonhardt changes from his solo registration on the lower manual, to his continuo registration on the upper), but I find it amazing how he uses variation in attack, and phrasing, to make his playing sound so dynamic.

 

Rostropovich ... had a definite flavor of Gypsiness to his playing, passionate and powerful ... It makes his playing very energetic, and it fits my personality.

This would be more my kind of "gypsiness", a favourite Django Reinhardt performance:

 

Django-J'attendrai

Saw that one too. It's in my favorites.

I guess it explains the difference between East and West

There's plenty of Eastern European gypsy music been played in Paris too, either by the Manouche themselves, or (and increasingly in recent years) by an influx of Roma from the East. Matelo(t) Ferret, who played sometimes in the Hot Club Quintette (that's his brother Baro, in the hat, in the J'attendrai clip), played a lot for Russian cabarets, and recorded some of that music on his 1960 album Tziganskaïa and other rare recordings (his "Tziganskaïa" is the same Russian tune, "Дорогой длинною", that became a 1968 number one chart-hit for Mary Hopkin as "Those were the Days..."). It's something I may have got a bit of an insight into a few years ago when a group of Russian guys came into a Montmartre restaurant I was in, where guitar music was played, and proceded to make a (competitive) show of spending a lot of money on drinks and giving the musicians large tips to play Russian tunes...

 

You might prefer Matelo's playing, in this clip: La Minch Valse

 

Here's my kind of "gypsiness"http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=RvzcMiYVGqU

Oh, so Russian gypsies keep white horses in modern tower blocks too, like the Irish traveller children in the film Into the West (no music, but a great bit of story telling): Tír na nÓg - Grandfather's story

 

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=suGSfczxw4M

And here's a great clip from a film about some French (Manouche) gypsies, that includes them playing guitars around a table: Latcho Drom

 

Edited to make sense of quotes

Edited July 22, 2008 by Stephen Chambers

[m3838]

And here's a great clip from a film about some French (Manouche) gypsies, that includes them playing guitars around a table:

Wow!

I wonder, where this stuff originates from?

Russian Gypsies came from Bessarabia (Romania) and further from Hungary. It is strongly reflected in the music style. But those French Gypsies play some sort of jazz. Are they more Westernized?

P.S.

Yes, Russian Gypsies ride their white horses along apartment blocks in Moscow, on a backdrop of rear projection of famous actors on motorcycles, dressed as Police officers. It's just a habit. Something like Champagne with Caviar, that every Russian is so fond of.