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Reed Steel, Modern Vs Vintage


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#19 ttonon

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 08:53 AM

 

Modern steels like the UHB20C reedsteel I use are excellent. It shears very cleanly compared to straight 1095 spring steel and has the highest fatigue strength of any carbon steel. Supplied at Rockwell C 60 it is hard enough.


Hi Dana, from what I read, UHB-20C and 1095 are approximately equivalent (about 1% carbon, 0.25% silicon, 0.45% manganese), so I'm guessing the different properties you're getting in the steel you're using are mainly down to the heat treatment?

 

Hi Alex, from a purely theoretical point of view - granting that sometimes such a view might be too simplified - I don't think so.  Both the Young's (Elastic) Modulus and density of both alloys are essentially the same, regardless of their heat treatment.  Thus, the ratios of these two properties are essentially the same, and so, I'd expect their acoustic results to be the same, when fashioned into reed tongues of the same geometry. 

 

Unless of course the geometries significantly differ, which is possible, since there are more than one geometries that can produce the same pitch.  Thus, the material of construction is not the only thing to consider in comparing the sound of two different tongues.  One must also consider their geometries, which I suppose complicates the issue quite a bit.  

 

Regards,

Tom

www.bluesbox.biz


Edited by ttonon, 23 January 2018 - 08:58 AM.


#20 alex_holden

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 01:16 PM

Modern steels like the UHB20C reedsteel I use are excellent. It shears very cleanly compared to straight 1095 spring steel and has the highest fatigue strength of any carbon steel. Supplied at Rockwell C 60 it is hard enough.


Hi Dana, from what I read, UHB-20C and 1095 are approximately equivalent (about 1% carbon, 0.25% silicon, 0.45% manganese), so I'm guessing the different properties you're getting in the steel you're using are mainly down to the heat treatment?

Hi Alex, from a purely theoretical point of view - granting that sometimes such a view might be too simplified - I don't think so.  Both the Young's (Elastic) Modulus and density of both alloys are essentially the same, regardless of their heat treatment.  Thus, the ratios of these two properties are essentially the same, and so, I'd expect their acoustic results to be the same, when fashioned into reed tongues of the same geometry.


I don't think Dana is claiming that reeds made from UHB-20C produce a different sound than those made from 1095, but that they are less prone to losing their initial set or cracking. I suspect that could be explained by a difference in hardness and possibly grain size.

#21 d.elliott

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 01:18 PM

If we knew all these answers, or even had the tools to come up with definitive questions for our answers to be fitted to, life would be so boring and we would not have anything guess and pontificate about. Cnet would have withered on the vine. 

 

Dave



#22 ttonon

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 02:53 PM

 

 

I don't think Dana is claiming that reeds made from UHB-20C produce a different sound than those made from 1095, but that they are less prone to losing their initial set or cracking. I suspect that could be explained by a difference in hardness and possibly grain size. 

Yes, I see.  Thanks.

 

Although the part about the geometry might be worth more thought, concerning the comparison of timbre between two tongues of different materials.  A simple experiment would be to make two tongues of the same material and pitch, but with different geometries.

 

Regards,

Tom



#23 d.elliott

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 03:27 PM

To lighten the 'tone', when I bought my Baritone, it was in pitch, but sounded lifeless, I got it relatively cheaply gambling on my ability to sort it out and that the owner just wanted to get shut of it. When I got it home I found that all the valves had been removed and replaced by strips of what appeared to be black/ grey tyre inner tube. Not even flat rubber insertion! The thought of getting rid of all that rubber cement still gives me the shudders.  It is working on big reed double acting instruments that has given me a very healthy regard on just how much valves, their fit and leather grade, direction of cut etc. can impact the performance of an instrument.

 

That started me on my journey to understand the foibles of big reed instruments. Still bumbling along.

 

Dave



#24 Dana Johnson

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 07:41 PM

Modern steels like the UHB20C reedsteel I use are excellent. It shears very cleanly compared to straight 1095 spring steel and has the highest fatigue strength of any carbon steel. Supplied at Rockwell C 60 it is hard enough.

Hi Dana, from what I read, UHB-20C and 1095 are approximately equivalent (about 1% carbon, 0.25% silicon, 0.45% manganese), so I'm guessing the different properties you're getting in the steel you're using are mainly down to the heat treatment?
in the compositions I see for 1095 steel, the silicon is absent. ( in earlier steels the molybdenum may have been absent as well.) Even though the uhb-20c is supplied at a harder temper than the dark blue 1095, I find it is less brittle. Given that Uddeholm is a strip steel manufacturer, there is a good chance that their hardening and tempering processes are pretty sophisticated. Still, they differentiate between the uhb-20c and their own 1095 steel.
Dana




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