Playing along to records

[michael sam wild]

Has anyone had this problem?

 

 

For the first time ever (I'm nearly 69) I have had ' a crisis of confidence ' over my sense of pitch

 

I went to our local Sheffield Carol singing last Sunday at the Royal Hotel in Dungworth and didn't feel happy singing.

 

I have had a bad cold and ear infection (vestibulitis) but that has never had a bad influence before.

 

What I wonder is this- I've been playing along on Anglo to tape recordings where I make multiple tracks of the same tune to PAADI (Play along ad infinitum - or even ad nauseam)

 

I have noticed that the tape recorder is sometimes a number of cycles out but as I play along I adapt and, although it's not ideal, I get by

 

Am I extending my acuity so that I 'wobble' around the common pitch sung by the crowd or the organist. I have not got 'perfect pitch' whatever that is , as I believe we go for a relative, common root note ( as frequencies have changed over the years it must be relative). But I have always been a 'striker' who could set, fairly closely, the key by ear and without a reference instrument

 

 

Yours puzzled and perplexed,

 

Sheffield

[JimLucas]

For the first time ever (I'm nearly 69) I have had ' a crisis of confidence ' over my sense of pitch

 

I went to our local Sheffield Carol singing last Sunday at the Royal Hotel in Dungworth and didn't feel happy singing.

 

...

 

What I wonder is this- I've been playing along on Anglo to tape recordings...

 

I have noticed that the tape recorder is sometimes a number of cycles out but as I play along I adapt and, although it's not ideal, I get by

 

Am I extending my acuity so that I 'wobble' around the common pitch sung by the crowd or the organist.

I've never heard of such a problem, but your "explanation" does make some sense. Human senses are suprisingly adaptable. E.g., with special prism glasses that invert the viewer's world, everything at first looks reversed, yet within days of constant wear, everything looks "normal" and the wearer has no trouble navigating through this "new world".

 

So I would guess that by practicing with a pitch differential, your brain could well have "learned" that that there should be a difference between the pitch you yourself are producing and that which you're hearing from another source. If so, I think this could result in either (or both?) of two possible errors: 1) You are singing wrong pitches, because something deep in your brain is now convinced that that is "right", though another part of your brain still recognises that they're wrong (hence your "crisis"). Or 2) you're singing the right pitches, but that something deep in your brain is disturbed by the fact that the pitches are not different.

 

It should be easy to distinguish which of those two (if either) is correct. If others are complaining that you're off pitch, then it would be the first one.

 

But if this "inappropriate learning" is the case, then you should be able to retrain yourself back to proper discrimination by henceforth practicing only with recordings that are in tune with your concertina. Any recording that doesn't agree in pitch could be recorded into your computer and then played back with one of the many programs that can adjust the pitch without changing the speed.

 

If you try this retraining, please let us know the result.

[michael sam wild]

Thanks

That's helpful.

It did occur to me that I might have a concertina in an older pitch! but I've checked it out against my tuner and it's spot on.

 

From now on I think I'll stick to CDs or the computer as I know they are OK. A pity cos I like taper recorders that can take you back to particular phrases.

 

 

In the 60s and 70s I tried to play along to records then found they were in say Eb, I assumed they were speeded up but then realised how many musicians favoured tuned up fiddles etc. Nowadays there are lots of concertina records in keys that we were not used to encountering.

[Hereward]

Thanks

That's helpful.

It did occur to me that I might have a concertina in an older pitch! but I've checked it out against my tuner and it's spot on.

 

From now on I think I'll stick to CDs or the computer as I know they are OK. A pity cos I like taper recorders that can take you back to particular phrases.

 

 

In the 60s and 70s I tried to play along to records then found they were in say Eb, I assumed they were speeded up but then realised how many musicians favoured tuned up fiddles etc. Nowadays there are lots of concertina records in keys that we were not used to encountering.

 

Michael,

 

Tapes can play at the wrong speed and that obviously would be a problem but you might like to consider buying a digital voice recorder which is much more accurate. Mine is of sufficient quality that it outputs pretty much what it hears and it records nearly nine hours at high quality stereo. It doesn't even need software. You pull off one section to reveal a USB plug, which then downloads automatically and can be played on the computer, imported into an ipod or burnt on a CD. It's a Star Trek world now.

 

Ian

[LDT]

It's a Star Trek world now.

I don't even have a tape player at all...

Its cd or mp3 player for me.

which reminds me I need to get a new mp3 player...I broke the other one.

 

I have a camera which takes photos, does youtube ready videos and records sound...not bad for a £100.

 

You pull off one section to reveal a USB plug, which then downloads automatically and can be played on the computer, imported into an ipod or burnt on a CD. I

and it takes up less room than storing lots of tapes.

Edited December 4, 2008 by LDT

[michael sam wild]

Ah ... but one day it may be taken back by the aliens and then where will you be? Keep all the old stuff, I still have records carved on stone in my garden shed . Where would Moses and the Mormons have been if they'd gone up the mountain and been told to log on and follow links only to find the internet provider had gone bust. Stone beats paper and scissors, remember the old kids' game!

 

Mike the Necromancer and Fancy Dancer

[michael sam wild]

From now on I think I'll stick to CDs or the computer as I know they are OK. A pity cos I like taper recorders that can take you back to particular phrases.

 

 

Cold cleared up and playing to CDs rather than tapes and Sunday sing went great.Thanks for advice

Edited December 9, 2008 by michael sam wild

[Anglo-Irishman]

Ah ... but one day it may be taken back by the aliens and then where will you be? Keep all the old stuff, I still have records carved on stone in my garden shed .

 

Mike,

The gramophone record is far enough back for me. On most modern decks, you can adjust the pitch by altering the speed slightly.

 

Stone beats paper and scissors, remember the old kids' game!

 

It's been a long time, but I'm pretty sure that, while "stone blunts scissors", "paper wraps stone". If stone always beat paper and scissors, the clenched fist would always win - and that's not what the game is trying to teach us. As in real life, whatever we choose, we can win or loose.

 

Cheers,

John

[michael sam wild]

John,

You're right! Paper will wrap stone . We went 'sis, pap, prick'. What was that all about? The outcome left you in no doubt and you accepted the result, paper wrapped stone but scissors cut paper and stone blunted scissors.

 

 

By the way , when you were playing in the school yard and wanted a rest or a break in a game or competition , what did you call? We said 'Ballies' in Moss Side in Manchester and crossed our fingers to reinforce it. Someone said it meant 'Parley' from the French - a break in hostilities by the knights. In other parts of UK they call 'Kings'or 'Fainites'. What is the distribution in UK or the wider world? I'd love to know as kids are the arbitrators of the world.

[Lawrence Reeves]

Sadly it is my occupation to sell and install complex home and commercial audio / video systems. A fine turntable should be at true speed, which ensures the pitch as recorded. Some modern turntables ( Stanton) for example allow the user to speed up or down without change of key. It is like the feature I mentioned a few months back to use Quicktime software to either change speed or pitch. My preference is still for a fully manual or semi manual belt drive turntable. They are more musical sounding. A top notch ( usually above entry priced system) hi fi can really bring out many subtle things in recordings. I myself, do use iTunes, iPods, and digital MP3 recorders to capture the moment, but don't consider them to be adequate to "listen" to music. Many people today rely on computer speakers, or even built into the computer speakers to listen to their music, many with bass heavy eq turned on. True playback on realistic speakers, an amplifier with dynamics, and good source players( cd, turntable, digital radio) is a real joy. Speakers that cost more than a vintage Linota or Jeffries are not totally necessary, but can really help.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Lawrence Reeves

[LDT]

By the way , when you were playing in the school yard and wanted a rest or a break in a game or competition , what did you call? We said 'Ballies' in Moss Side in Manchester and crossed our fingers to reinforce it. Someone said it meant 'Parley' from the French - a break in hostilities by the knights. In other parts of UK they call 'Kings'or 'Fainites'. What is the distribution in UK or the wider world? I'd love to know as kids are the arbitrators of the world.

 

Didn't have anything like that...only managed to play games when in infants school...in juniors I was too busy hiding from the bullies.

 

We played 'what's the time mr wolf', 'sticky sticky toffee', 'Polo' (Involved running from one side to the other of two lines spelling out words), peep behind the curtain and skipping rhymes mainly, oh and 'Ip-a-dip a docious' where you all put your feet in and said the ryhme and last one left in was the winner.

[michael sam wild]

By the way , when you were playing in the school yard and wanted a rest or a break in a game or competition , what did you call? We said 'Ballies' in Moss Side in Manchester and crossed our fingers to reinforce it. Someone said it meant 'Parley' from the French - a break in hostilities by the knights. In other parts of UK they call 'Kings'or 'Fainites'. What is the distribution in UK or the wider world? I'd love to know as kids are the arbitrators of the world.

 

Didn't have anything like that...only managed to play games when in infants school...in juniors I was too busy hiding from the bullies.

 

We played 'what's the time mr wolf', 'sticky sticky toffee', 'Polo' (Involved running from one side to the other of two lines spelling out words), peep behind the curtain and skipping rhymes mainly, oh and 'Ip-a-dip a docious' where you all put your feet in and said the ryhme and last one left in was the winner.

 

 

 

Happy days! Now I'm in my second childhood this web site fulfils the same function, if I can get anyone to play with me that is . ' All in for daft conversations"

[LDT]

I'm just wondering if any of those old skipping rhymes count as 'folk songs'

[Dave Rogers]

I'm just wondering if any of those old skipping rhymes count as 'folk songs'

 

Course they do! The band "Little Johnny England" from Northamptonshire is named after a traditional playground rhyme from that county. Chris Leslie sings the song on "Grandson of Morris On":

 

Little Johnny England he went a wandering

He went a wandering all day long

He went a wandering with his little panniken

He went a wandering all day long.

 

You are the butchers. You are the bakers.

You are the candlestick makers.

You're the linen weavers. You're the linen drapers.

You are the brokers. You're all the broker's men.

[LDT]

I remember one that went

 

'I knew a little dutch girl called I Shoe Shoe-ella*,

and all the boys in the football team said I love Shoe-ella.

How is your boyfriend, alright?

Died in the fish shop last night.

What did he die of?

Raw fish.**

How did he die?

Like this.***"

 

there are actions

*point to eye, and shoe

 

**Hold nose as in stinky fish

 

***Fall back and the other person has to catch you

 

--

oh and

"Mother's in the kitchen,

doing a bit of stitching,

in jumps the burgular,

out jumps she."

Edited December 11, 2008 by LDT

[Dave Rogers]

If you're interested in this sort of thing, this is the Bible:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lore-Language-Scho...s/dp/0940322692

[michael sam wild]

When I was a kid these songs were sung at speed and to rhythm with skipping or hand movements. If you got it wrong you were 'out' or had a penalty or consequence.. daft songs were a good way of remembering tunes as Morris dancers know.

 

I saw and heard the same thing in the 60s , well before Rap.when I worked in West Africa where kids and teenagers made songs up very fast, sometimes using stock phrases (like musicians do), often in duelling pairs, often insulting each other or their mothers. It is still very much part of 'urban' songs e.g 'and your mother!' or mofoh! Very quick witted , like 'cutting' by jazzmen

 

 

Is there a musical parallel amongst trad players. Do we try to play in harmony or to burn each other off?

[michael sam wild]

There's an interesting thread on Irtrad about 'nonsense' words in trad songs.

I've always thougt that lilters or diddlers carried the song tunes and the 'words' were irrelevant.

Mike

 

As someone said 'It's music not a newspaper!'

Mike