Pete Dickey Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Hi All Have just robbed the bank and got a little modelling lathe. As a project I am considering making some new buttons to replace the bone buttons on a restoration project (48 button Lachenal English). I have in mind using aluminium or stainless steel although other materials do spring to mind e.g. nickel silver and brass. Has anyone any thoughts or recommendations that I could take on board? I am also undecided as to the shape of the button ends e.g domed or flat with rounded shoulder. Some food for thought would be useful. Thanks Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Aluminum can leave black marks on some people's fingers and there seems to be some correlation between brass, sweat and the formulation of the dreaded "Green Goo". Solid metal buttons (with the exception of very light metals like aluminum and manganese) can add substantial weight to an instrument. Most vintage instruments had drawn metal buttons or capped metal tubes. Hamish Bayne made his buttons solid but drilled out holes (perpendicularly to the length of the buttons) in order to make them lighter.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Pete, Sounds like you really want to use your new lathe and associated challenges with it so be the first one to make them from stainless steel!!! Good luck! and do tell me if you manage....IF you do you will have my unreserved admiration... Joke aside...No doubt solid metal buttons in my view is very attractive as an end product and will last almost for ever. I haven't thought much over the methods to profile the top, slightly tricky it seems if you don't make a good special tool for it. Finding the 'right' profile may take a great deal of experimenting. Using a separate (cast not turned) light metal cap combined with a plastic stem probably is the most handy way IF you want metal tops after all... I make buttons from (usually 6 and 2mm) PVC rod which is very easy to profile and polish. Rich, The matter of button weight...I think this mostly is overstated. Despite you can 'feel' a weight difference between solid metal button instruments and others the significance ought to be negligable in practise! 1) The *weight* of an instrument in principle should be of very little interest except for carrying it around between sessions. When playing the use of shoulder (or neck-) straps or playing seated is the rational way dealing with it. 2) The weight has no significance for effort of 'bellowsing' (except possibly for energetic 'tremolo' or 'bellowsshake' movements) 3) The button weight has very little (if any...) significance for playing speed Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 The matter of button weight...I think this mostly is overstated. Despite you can 'feel' a weight difference between solid metal button instruments and others the significance ought to be negligable in practise! Then why do so many people make a big deal of how much concertinas weigh and prefer lighter ones? 1) The *weight* of an instrument in principle should be of very little interest except for carrying it around between sessions. When playing the use of shoulder (or neck-) straps or playing seated is the rational way dealing with it. Maybe in principal but not in reality. Rationality doesn't seem to enter into the equation much either. Note that very few concertina players use a neck strap, and the most common way of playing a BA in Ireland is to use only a single shoulder strap rather than a pair. 3) The button weight has very little (if any...) significance for playing speed Several people have reported to us that solid buttons have appreciable mass which limits their ability to play crisply and quickly (especially triplets) due to their inertia. I've heard that that was the main reason why Hamish started drilling out his buttons (in order to make them lighter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dickey Posted January 4, 2004 Author Share Posted January 4, 2004 Goran I'll certainly let you know if I manage a set of stainless steel buttons. You are of course quite right that I want to play with my new toy. Richard re: Hamish Bayne cross-drilling the buttons. Would this not lead to increased wear of the bushing felts? I do take your point about weight and intend to try and accertain the additional weight solid metal buttons will add depending on material used. Perhaps some upgrading of the springs could be necessary to try and improve crispness and speed - which in turn will alter the entire playing characteristics of the concertina - which of course will change........(perhaps I shouldn't have started this thread!) Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Taylor Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 (edited) The matter of button weight...I think this mostly is overstated. Despite you can 'feel' a weight difference between solid metal button instruments and others the significance ought to be negligable in practise! Then why do so many people make a big deal of how much concertinas weigh and prefer lighter ones? 1) The *weight* of an instrument in principle should be of very little interest except for carrying it around between sessions. When playing the use of shoulder (or neck-) straps or playing seated is the rational way dealing with it. Maybe in principal but not in reality. Rationality doesn't seem to enter into the equation much either. Note that very few concertina players use a neck strap, and the most common way of playing a BA in Ireland is to use only a single shoulder strap rather than a pair. 3) The button weight has very little (if any...) significance for playing speed Several people have reported to us that solid buttons have appreciable mass which limits their ability to play crisply and quickly (especially triplets) due to their inertia. I've heard that that was the main reason why Hamish started drilling out his buttons (in order to make them lighter). Richard, As you are probably aware, Goran is trying to "improve" concertinas by adding wrist supports. These will increase weight. They also do not fit on standard treble-sized instruments, so larger instruments will be necessary, also increasing weight. Since these increases in weight and size constitute significant arguments against Goran's "improvements", he is desperately trying to downplay their significance. Jonathan Taylor Edited January 5, 2004 by Jonathan Taylor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 QUOTE (goran rahm) The matter of button weight...I think this mostly is overstated. Despite you can 'feel' a weight difference between solid metal button instruments and others the significance ought to be negligable in practise! Rich:"Then why do so many people make a big deal of how much concertinas weigh and prefer lighter ones?" Goran:I think it is firstly due to misinterpretations of the believed importance of weight...not least because of multiple hearsay. Many players wrongly believe that the greater effort 'bellowsing' a 'larger' instrument is caused by the weight while it in reality is caused by the larger en area. If you play standing without support like I said you do 'feel' the weight difference and it is easy to believe it has influence on the playing.Well...of course there IS some influence...but for an Anglo or treble English the weight may at most be 100g more....i.e 10% or less...not much to speak about but IF you perform at the very limit of your resources it will matter, for sure....like I said, again..the sensible action is using a support! You may regard the 'freedom' holding the concertina only with your hands is part of its charm but if it limits your performance it is pretty stupid...is it not? QUOTE (Goran) 1) The *weight* of an instrument in principle should be of very little interest except for carrying it around between sessions. When playing the use of shoulder (or neck-) straps or playing seated is the rational way dealing with it. Rich:"Maybe in principal but not in reality. Rationality doesn't seem to enter into the equation much either. Note that very few concertina players use a neck strap.." Goran:Quite 'true' but I'm afraid rationality is the right way to go....guitarists and photografers have learnt to use wide straps...why could not concertina players get evenly wise?? Now...neckstrap is not so good anyway...but shoulderstraps... Rich:"... and the most common way of playing a BA in Ireland is to use only a single shoulder strap rather than a pair." Goran:This is not entirely stupid because with very energetic push/pull and a fairly light box you may get better sideways stability this way than with double shoulderstraps which get rather loose if you have a small box in a low position. One alternative is tight double shoulderstraps and a chest-high position or a good fixation of the straps in a girdle. When I play(ed) one row I mounted an about 200x300mm chestplate on the back of the instrument to which I fastened full size double shoulder straps with cross strap on the back...a steady girdle...and had a completely free right hand. This way you can pump like mad without problems.... QUOTE 3) The button weight has very little (if any...) significance for playing speed Rich:"Several people have reported to us that solid buttons have appreciable mass which limits their ability to play crisply and quickly (especially triplets) due to their inertia." Goran:Hmm yes, with very fast playing you probably will have some effect...I don't react myself however... What difference could you expect?....All-metal buttons may weigh 3grams instead of 1gram for the lightest variants.Say pads weigh 1gram too. You get in all 4 grams to move instead of 2 and we have our 'standard' button resistance of about 70gram to overcome...2 grams difference at 70...3% at low speed, not detectable. Now you can try to calculate the acceleration force at variable speed to find out when it matters much...with reservations I get that for 200 notes/minute you might get acceleration forces around 35gram with 4grams to move and the half with 2....still to be related to the button resistance/spring force. Sounds as if it should matter more than it seems to. There is a sum effect from spring force, finger strength and individual rapidness... Rich:"I've heard that that was the main reason why Hamish started drilling out his buttons (in order to make them lighter). " Goran:So we find that for demands of very fast playing speed and crisp staccatto the button weight IS significant. We could return to earlier discussion on button resistance...by increasing the spring force (button resistance) greater speed of action is achieved (conditionally that the player is strong enough....), heavier buttons may be used for same speed (and by using wider buttons comfort may be preserved despite increased button resistance). Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I do take your point about weight... The weight of the buttons is one factor, and by what percentage solid metal buttons would add to the weight of an instrument over other types of buttons is an interesting question. Metal ends are often spoken of as heavier than wooden ends, but I don't know of any analysis comparing weights of otherwise identical instruments or players' evaluation of what effect such difference has on their playing. But the word weight is often used incorrectly to mean mass, a factor Rich also mentions. A more massive button requires more force -- from the finger on the "downward" stroke and from the spring on the return stroke -- to effect the same movement in the same time... ignoring friction and other factors. The mass-density range of common woods is about 0.5-0.9 g/cc (1.11-1.33 for ebony), ebonite 1.15 (similar for Delrin?), aluminum 2.7, bone 1.7-2.0, ivory 1.83-1.92, titanium 4.5, iron 7.0-7.9 (depends on crystal structure?), steel 7.81.7.83, brass 8.2-8.7, and platinum 21.37. (Source, CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 44th ed.) It looks to me like the differences could be enough to make a difference, but careful testing would be required to determine whether the difference matters significantly under playing conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I see no-one's mentioned the technique used by Colin Dipper (and I believe Steve Dickinson, but I am not sure) to give light weight/mass metal buttons. His buttons consist of a metal cap that fits over a delrin core. Means more work for the maker, of course, but when you buy a Dipper you get the best there is. I should have thought it would be possible to do this on your lathe, Pete. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I see no-one's mentioned the technique used by Colin Dipper (and I believe Steve Dickinson, but I am not sure) to give light weight/mass metal buttons. His buttons consist of a metal cap that fits over a delrin core. Means more work for the maker, of course, but when you buy a Dipper you get the best there is. I should have thought it would be possible to do this on your lathe, Pete. I had mentioned earlier in this thread that "Most vintage instruments had drawn metal buttons or capped metal tubes" both which are pretty easy to do with the proper tools (which doesn't include a lathe). Small "deep drawing" machines are readily available and can easily make concertina buttons though it would probably be less expensive to job out the order (we had several buttons made for our consideration when we were first designing our concertinas). The result is a elongated metal cap created out of a single piece of flat stock. The hollow center could be fitted with a stem of any material. The capped metal tube design is simpler as it needs no special machine to create. Most vintage concertinas using this design had the outer end capped with solder (like?) material and hollow center fitted with a plastic or wood stem. Sometimes a metal stem was used that filled the entire core so the capping was unnecessary. One possible design which I haven't seen would be to use a tube with a delrin core running all the way through, and finishing off the outer end which would result in a button with a circular inlay effect. It could be as subtle as a german silver tube with white delrin center or more arresting with a black delrin center.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Thorne Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 When considering the weight of parts you surely need to take the volume of material into account as well as the density? In the case of end plates; a metal endplate may be 1mm thick, but a wooden one 3mm thick. Also, due to the nature/strength of the material its is possible to make the metal endplate far more open than a wooden one (ie less material). A similar case may apply to buttons where although, say stainless steel, is much denser than nylon/delrin, you could acheive the same strength with much less material. I'm not saying that metal endplates aren't heavier, just that the total weight of the material rather than just density needs to be considered. Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Groff Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 (edited) Hello all, I agree with Rich Morse that very heavy buttons can feel a little slower (on very fast operations, like triplets and other ornaments), especially if you have previously learned your technique and timing on an instrument with light buttons, and like Rich I have speculated that this apparent "slowness" is due to increased button inertia. I'm sure there is an interaction here with spring characteristics. The heaviest-buttoned concertinas I have played are the Jeffries marked with the Praed St. address in the oval; these buttons are solid nickel-silver and larger diameter than the earlier Jeffries solid metal buttons. With practice, though, these instruments can be played blindingly fast and I have seen brilliant Irish players really go to town on these. I suspect that, as with spring pressure, instrument weight, bellows stiffness, reed stiffness, and other factors that seem to generate a feeling of "resistance," the subjective "action slowness" of heavy buttons may be more frustrating to amateur and beginning players wanting to play "faster than they should" -- i. e., faster than they can control. Of course, even great players may be able to work light buttons a little faster, all things being equal, and may prefer them (as I do, though I'm not great!). I would never write off one of these Jeffries with heavy buttons, though, as having slow actions; if you practice on them to accomodate to their timing, their action will be much faster than most of us need. And the large size (for finger comfort) and durability of these are both positive factors for many (and may have been the basis for Jeffries' switch to this size). I always enjoy playing on a good Praed St. Jeffries! Before leaving the subject of subjective action weight and speed (as influenced by button weight) we should remember that for keyboard instruments the minimum weight and pressure are not always desirable for best action, as judged by a serious player. The cheapest electronic keyboards have very light (and lightly sprung) keys, but serious players often pay ten to a hundred times more for a much heavier electronic instrument with weighted keys (with appreciably more inertia) and heavier resistance to finger touch. Then remember that a concert grand piano may have an action that is almost unplayably heavy and stiff for even many good amateur pianists -- yet this is what the really fine players demand. (On the other hand as well as my heavy Yamaha EP with weighted keys, I love my 1954 Hammond B2 organ with a featherlight touch -- for a totally different style of playing). I have been talking about the effect of button weight on subjective action speed. But as noted by others, these heavy buttons (particularly in the 45 + keyed Jeffries duets and anglos with the Praed St. stamp) also contribute a lot to the overall weight of the instrument. Unlike the pianists, we are supporting some of the weight of a concertina when we play! I know anglo players with the PS-stamped Jeffries who have removed the buttons they don't use (beyond 31 or so) and found the whole instrument substantially lighter. To answer Goran in advance, yes, I have tried a few substitution experiments and, with my particular styles and techniques, I can detect both of the effects noted above on individual instruments when changing only the buttons and nothing else. However, as I suggested above, whether or not you detect an effect of the substitution will probably depend on how you operate the instrument and how sensitive you are. As well, with time and practice to adjust your technique to a different button type, you may find a button type that was initially "worse" becomes "just as good" or even "better" subjectively. Many newcomers to any instrument are "over-sensitive" to details to which an experienced player can easily accomodate (again, like the teenager who can only drive the family car and is freaked out by standard vs. automatic, column v s. floor shift, etc.). On the other hand, many excellent and very experienced players develop a need for very precise specifications to achieve the results they like. I usually advise students to develop the ability to accomodate to different instruments, not getting too "hung up" on particular personal specifications until they have a few years' experience . Since (with guidance from a teacher) most players can learn to operate most of the concertinas out there (assuming they are quality instruments in good condition), this means that beginners can agonize less about the details of their first (or second) learner instrument and just get on with practicing! Just my $.02! Paul Edited January 5, 2004 by Paul Groff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Jonathan:"As you are probably aware, Goran is trying to "improve" concertinas by adding wrist supports. These will increase weight. They also do not fit on standard treble-sized instruments, so larger instruments will be necessary, also increasing weight. Since these increases in weight and size constitute significant arguments against Goran's "improvements", he is desperately trying to downplay their significance." Goran: Sorry having to say so Jonathan but the above is rubbish. 1)The present discussion on button weight has nothing to do with my modification suggestions 2) You evidently still have not noticed that I repeatedly point out that with using better handles and rational ways supporting the instrument *weight* is reduced or even eliminated as a factor influencing effort of playing...just as things ought to be!...and remains important "only for carrying the instrument between sessions" 3) Due to that of course there is no interest whatsoever for me to advocate for weight reduction and in fact I haven't done so...I happily play an instrument that weighs 2500grams. Instrument weight matters only when holding the instrument in the air without any support and I don't hesitate to say that this habit is rather absurd in my eyes if the one who does it experiences problems with the weight. Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Jim:"The weight of the buttons is one factor, and by what percentage solid metal buttons would add to the weight of an instrument over other types of buttons is an interesting question. Metal ends are often spoken of as heavier than wooden ends, but I don't know of any analysis comparing weights of otherwise identical instruments or players' evaluation of what effect such difference has on their playing." Goran:Additional weight from metal ends:Sixsided treble about 100g, Aeola treble about 150g. Again...the weight 'should' have NO difference for playing except for endurance of holding the instrument in the air...which should be entirely unnecessary...:-) Jim:But the word weight is often used incorrectly to mean mass, a factor Rich also mentions. A more massive button requires more force -- from the finger on the "downward" stroke and from the spring on the return stroke -- to effect the same movement in the same time... ignoring friction and other factors. Goran: I don't understand a word of what you mean..."massive"...??? The *weight* = *mass* of the button in this case is the same thing...or is it not?? "Massive"..you evidently mean 'density'...what has that got to do with it?? It is the *mass* that matters...if the density is higher for the same mass you likely get a 'smaller' button.... Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Chris:"I see no-one's mentioned the technique used by Colin Dipper (and I believe Steve Dickinson, but I am not sure) to give light weight/mass metal buttons" Goran: There are lots of variants on the same theme. The point ought to be what the occasional aim is. 1) a particular button cap style for looks or luxury 2) a particular material choice for various demands of playing efficiency, including speed,touch comfort, touch confidence... 3) cost of material and processing 4) availability of material, machinery, skill 5) durability of materials You likely can not get optimum for all in one so any choice has to be some kind of compromise Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Paul:"Before leaving the subject of subjective action weight and speed (as influenced by button weight) we should remember that for keyboard instruments the minimum weight and pressure are not always desirable for best action, as judged by a serious player." Goran:True...you need to separate some factors however to understand the various preferrences. Habit always being an important one..:-) even for "serious" players... Both for pianos and concertinas greater weight/resistance will increase the 'technical' fastness of the instrument as such due to velocity of key return. The *player* has to provide a certain muscular effort which can influence the duration of 'press down phase'. Stronger player likely faster action. BUT...the actual 'speed' is also a function of the individual neuromuscular velocity and for best results the player needs to be 'quick' AND 'strong'. For each individual you probably may by experimenting find some kind of optimal weight/resistance for maximal speed. This is not certainly the same as individually perceived comfort or enjoyment but mostly you meet advanced pianists preferring greater key weight/resistance than beginners...not surprising. Paul:"Unlike the pianists, we are supporting some of the weight of a concertina when we play! I know anglo players with the PS-stamped Jeffries who have removed the buttons they don't use (beyond 31 or so) and found the whole instrument substantially lighter. " Goran:Ha!....they live unconscious of what they are doing and how to deal with it:-) Paul:To answer Goran in advance, yes, I have tried a few substitution experiments and, with my particular styles and techniques, I can detect both of the effects noted above on individual instruments when changing only the buttons and nothing else Goran:I would like to settle with the statement that *instrument weight* 'should' not have any real influence on playing efficiency or comfort at all when speaking of differences of 10-30% or so and marginal effect within at least the range of 1000-2000 grams. Button weight I believe ought to be expected having noticable effect for *fast* playing when comparing the very lightest (about 1 gram each) with the very heaviest(about 3 gram each) common models and 'fast' in this respect meaning more than at least 100 notes/minute. Generally speaking you often meet the experience from physical 'load' comparisons that the subjective dicrimination limit is around 10%. With less difference you have to measure the load to detect effects..just for a guide... Paul:"Since (with guidance from a teacher) most players can learn to operate most of the concertinas out there (assuming they are quality instruments in good condition), this means that beginners can agonize less about the details of their first (or second) learner instrument and just get on with practicing!" Goran: This is something I sort of object against despite it well can be regarded as 'true' ! The point being that it is so easy to accept unperfect conditions by getting used to them and by adapting to 'less than the best'. This is unfortunate and contraproductive in my view. Only the *very best* is what can be recommended to anyone. IF you can not afford it or whatever you may have accept compromises....but never present the compromises as 'good solutions' just because "you probably get over it with time"...That mostly is waste of time and effort! and sometimes hazardous to the wellbeing as well... Goran Rahm Just my $.02! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 (edited) But the word weight is often used incorrectly to mean mass, a factor Rich also mentions. A more massive button requires more force -- from the finger on the "downward" stroke and from the spring on the return stroke -- to effect the same movement in the same time... ignoring friction and other factors. I don't understand a word of what you mean..."massive"...???The *weight* = *mass* of the button in this case is the same thing...or is it not?? "Massive"..you evidently mean 'density'...what has that got to do with it?? It is the *mass* that matters...if the density is higher for the same mass you likely get a 'smaller' button.... Some basic Physics: Weight is defined as "force due to the effect of gravity." Weight = mass x gravitational field strength. In a constant gravitational field (it's not so different in Denmark, is it, Jim?) weight and mass are proportional. Buttons with more mass are always heavier than buttons with less mass. I don't think Jim meant "density," and as Goran says, "what has that got to do with it??" Heavy buttons contribute to an instrument that might be harder to lift and massive buttons contribute to an instrument that might manifest greater inertia in pressing the buttons. But in all cases (except on the moon), they are the same thing. Edited January 5, 2004 by David Barnert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Stander Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Folks: I'm amazed that two things haven't come up during this conversation: 1) The heavier a button is, the stronger the spring has to be on the concertina action. It seems to me that one has to be careful here or the valve may not close on the rebound. 2) The larger the button's diameter, the greater the friction will be between button and felt. Not to malign Colin Dipper in any way, but I have played a large buttoned dipper that sticks a bit because the buttons are too wide. Such is life. Ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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