Jim Besser Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Reading the fascinating Tedrow logs (sounds like a Robert Ludlum thriller), I was struck once again by the reality that accordion reeds don't sound like concertina reeds. I hear this very clearly in the difference between my Herrington and my Dipper/Groff-modified Lachenal. I love them both, but only one sounds like a "real" concertina to my ears. I'm wondering what factors make it so hard to modify accordion reeds, or to jigger with other variables in the concertina, to more closely approximate the genuine concertina sound. Has there been a lot of experimentation aimed at this? What kinds of results have people seen? Have the newer accordion reeded instruments moved closer to the real thing, sound wise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 To start with, accordion and concertina reeds are very different, as are harmonium (reed organ) and harmonica reeds. These all share the same basic design of a reed tongue affixed at one end in a frame, but that's about it. To stick to just accordion and concertina reeds, they evolved (quite early on) into quite different animals from their more common original design into "high pressure" (accordion) and "low pressure" (concertina) reeds. They are designed to operate optimally under different basic pressure parameters. That is one reason why accordion reeds have such a different tonal color, typically take more pressure to start speaking, are inherently louder and have less dynamic range than concertina reeds. The entire reed assembly's design is toward those propensities, including the reed tongue's mass distribution, stiffness, profile, hardness, set, clearances, etc. and its reedplate thickness, vent size/shape/taper, etc. There is very little one can do with an existing reed assembly to change its qualities, with probably the easiest (relatively!) thing being to machine a taper into the vent walls of an accordion reedplate. Several of us "hybrid" makers have experimented with this, and I think Wim Wakker may be the most knowledgeable and inclusive of this modification to his instruments. Still, this doesn't make it a concertina reed, but only enables it to sound a bit more like one. There really is no practical way alter the parameters of the reed tongue itself. It would be far easier to make a concertina reed tongue from scratch. But then you'd have to make the plates from scratch too.... All this is pretty limiting. But beyond the reed, there are many things that can be adjusted to make the reed's sound more concertina-ish than accordion-ish, but here we're talking about "coloring" the sound, mainly by frequency absorption - or enhancement, mainly by mounting techniques. All the "hybrid" makers have designed their boxes to effect a more concertina sound from accordion reeds. Some with more success than others (though success depends on the goal of the makers which may be different from what many concertina players/buyers want). Stagi (and ilk) do not get much into concertina design/construction and that is why their instruments sound and respond more like accordions. Results of concertinafication? On a scale of 1-10 with accordions at 1 and concertinas at 10, I (me, personally - I'd be interested to hear what other people's "score" on this would be) would consider a Stagi to range from 1 to 2 and the hybrids to be from 3 to 6 (and I feel that I may be being generous here). Keep in mind that I'm considering response as well as sound. Raters need to be on the knowledgeable player end too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Besser Posted February 18, 2004 Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 >results of concertinafication? On a scale of 1-10 with accordions > at 1 and concertinas at 10, I (me, personally - I'd be interested > to hear what other people's "score" on this would be) would Thanks for a very thorough reply, rich . So with your instruments, have you been making changes that add to the concertina-like tonal qualities? I've played 2 of yours, and one sounded much more traditional (it was a newer one) than the other, and than my early Herrington. What changes have you made? Given the fundamental differences in the reeds, it's amazing how well the Morse and Herrington (and I'd assume the Tedrow and the Edgley) feel like traditional concertinas when played. The more traditional-sounding Morse I played was a 6 or 7 on your scale; I'd give my Herrington a 4 or 5, same as the first Morse I played (serial number in the 30s, I think so very early) Is achieving a more traditional sound an ongoing goal of hybrid makers, or is this regarded as a hopeless quest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Is achieving a more traditional sound an ongoing goal of hybrid makers, or is this regarded as a hopeless quest? Why not both? "One reed to rule them all...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Tedrow Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 (edited) Results of concertinafication? On a scale of 1-10 with accordions at 1 and concertinas at 10, I (me, personally - I'd be interested to hear what other people's "score" on this would be) would consider a Stagi to range from 1 to 2 and the hybrids to be from 3 to 6 (and I feel that I may be being generous here). Keep in mind that I'm considering response as well as sound. Raters need to be on the knowledgeable player end too. Rich, What would a huffy-chuffy slow speaking bonebutton metal end Lachenal place on that scale? A 10, even though it compares poorly to a snappy little edeophone? Bob Edited February 24, 2004 by Bob Tedrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Results of concertinafication? On a scale of 1-10 with accordions at 1 and concertinas at 10, I (me, personally - I'd be interested to hear what other people's "score" on this would be) would consider a Stagi to range from 1 to 2 and the hybrids to be from 3 to 6 (and I feel that I may be being generous here). Keep in mind that I'm considering response as well as sound. Raters need to be on the knowledgeable player end too. What would a huffy-chuffy slow speaking bonebutton metal end Lachenal place on that scale? A 10, even though it compares poorly to a snappy little edeophone? I'd consider that Lachenal to be a 10. I seem to visualize the accordion/concertina comparison to be a 3D thing with 1-10 of the X axis being accordion-concertina sound, the Y axis being response, and Z axis being construction quality. The 2D version would look something like this: 10 snappy R 9 Edeophone e 8 s 7 p 6 Morse o 5 n 4 s 3 Stagi low-end e 2 Lachenal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Accordion Concertina I'd have to draw out the 3D version, but verbally, the Z axis would put the Stagi = 2, Morse = 5, that Lachenal =4 and the Edeophone = 10. Actually, I haven't given this charting/concept much thought. This is just the way I've been visualizing this comparison. There are a lot of other parameters which I can't express here though I "see" in my mind, like: Each name on the chart could also represent individual boxes (in addition to the general make of box) which would have their "name" in color represent condition with red being basket-case boxes to orange (marginally playable) to amber (average condition) to celery (good shape (could use some fine tuning, etc.) to green (as mint and tweeked). Brand new boxes would have their name colors shine. Availability could be expressed in how large a font the box's names were, such as Stagi, Lachenal, or Jeffries. Names of boxes which are of particularly good value would shake/move slightly, or pulse lightly (buy me, buy me, I'm undervalued!). Those that are overrated would appear in boated text that's a bit more pastel (washed out) in color. I find this interesting - my trying to descibe a concept that I've never delineated before.... Insights into a visual person.... Who knows, maybe someone can expand upon this idea to make it useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Tedrow Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 (edited) What would a huffy-chuffy slow speaking bonebutton metal end Lachenal place on that scale? A 10, even though it compares poorly to a snappy little edeophone? I'd consider that Lachenal to be a 10. So, by default, any tradreed gets assigned a 10, regardless of tone? Edited February 25, 2004 by Bob Tedrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Harrison Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Hey guys.....just a bit of day dreaming here. If you can put accordion reeds in a concertina, could you put concertina reeds in a melodeon(diatonic accordion) Did any of the major concertina producers ever experiment with this Robin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 If you can put accordion reeds in a concertina, could you put concertina reeds in a melodeon(diatonic accordion)Did any of the major concertina producers ever experiment with this Robin, The answer to your question is yes, but nothing came of it. Lachenal & Co. experimented with this idea, maybe around 1930, as a 2-row chromatic (probably C/C#) melodeon has survived. It was numbered C1223 in the former Concertina Museum Collection, and is presumably now at the Horniman Museum. There have also been accordion-tuned, English-made, concertinas and even a Wheatstone Bandonion, but that is another story ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 What would a huffy-chuffy slow speaking bonebutton metal end Lachenal place on that scale? A 10, even though it compares poorly to a snappy little edeophone? I'd consider that Lachenal to be a 10. So, by default, any tradreed gets assigned a 10, regardless of tone? Depends upon what you mean by "tradreed" and which tradreed. Consider flutinas, for instance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Edgley Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 "If you can put accordion reeds in a concertina, could you put concertina reeds in a melodeon(diatonic accordion) Did any of the major concertina producers ever experiment with this?" Edgley: I believe Colin Dipper makes "Franglos". I may be mistaken, but I think I remember him telling me they were designed for French melodian (button accordion) players. "QUOTE (Bob Tedrow @ Feb 24 2004, 08:13 PM) QUOTE (Richard Morse @ Feb 24 2004, 06:05 PM) What would a huffy-chuffy slow speaking bonebutton metal end Lachenal place on that scale? A 10, even though it compares poorly to a snappy little edeophone? I'd consider that Lachenal to be a 10." BOB:"So, by default, any tradreed gets assigned a 10, regardless of tone?" RICH:"Depends upon what you mean by "tradreed" and which tradreed. Consider flutinas, for instance...." EDGLEY: (Response) Actually, the tones of "Vintage" concertinas varies so much from maker to maker it really isn't possible IMHO to classify them as such. For example, I have two Dippers made about 7 years apart. Each has a completely different sound. One is mellow and almost muted, while the other is loud and very bright. The same can be said of Wheatstones. Chris Droney's Wheatstone is about as far from an Aeola as you can get in tone. When we had him in Detroit a few years back, he played a concert for us (Comhaltas). Several of the local musicians asked what kind of concertina he was playing because they said it sounded so different from what they had heard a concertina sound like. Just compare the sound of a Jeffries to the sound of a Lachenal---very different. Then there's the wooden-ended vs the metal ended difference. So, is there a difference between accordion-reeded instruments and the so-called "concertina sound"? Again, it depends which accordion-reeded instrument you are talking about. All of them sound different from one another, just as concertina-reeded instruments do. Some are warmer and mellower, and some are harsher and brighter. There is a difference in reed quality, for one thing. Hand-made "A Mano" reeds generally are sweeter sounding and very responsive with little pressure than the mass-produced "Durale" reeds. Not all accordion reeded concertina makers use "A Mano" reeds, as they are quite a bit more expensive. Then there are the differences between reed makers. Each will have a slightly different tone. Also, as Rich mentioned, there are design differences among concertina makers which can make an accordion-reeded concertina sound differently, or more "concertina-like", whatever that means. Keep in mind the effects of "playing in" an instrument. No matter what anyone may say, concertinas do change in tone after being played. So comparing the sound of a hundred year old, oft-played instrument is not a well controlled comparison. I got the opportunity to hear and play one of my early concertinas a while ago. It was surprisingly similar to a certain vintage Wheatstone (no, not the later Boosy & Hawkes models). Since that early model, I have made significant changes in construction and design. I'm anxiously optimistic to hear what my newer models will sound like in a few years from now. This is not a simple "black and white" issue. There are so many variables---personal tastes, vaiations between makers and models and years of constuction, individual perception, and personal bias. So I think Rich's scale idea , while valid, is difficult to generalise, and may well vary from person to person, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marc Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 To stick to just accordion and concertina reeds, they evolved (quite early on) into quite different animals from their more common original design into "high pressure" (accordion) and "low pressure" (concertina) reeds. They are designed to operate optimally under different basic pressure parameters. That is one reason why accordion reeds have such a different tonal color, typically take more pressure to start speaking, are inherently louder and have less dynamic range than concertina reeds. A bit mysterious? The accordion and concertina reeds operate under different pressure conditions...but isn't that the result rather than the aim of the design of the whole box and the reeds are just what they are? Low/high pressure reeds...you don't mean the opposite?? You can hardly create as high a pressure with an accordion as with a concertina so I guess that generally speaking the working pressure of concertina reeds is higher...? ....and are accordion reeds generally louder?...and.... have less dynamic range than concertina reeds? You mean they are louder at maximum but start speaking at a much louder level than concertina reeds? Is that general?.... and how is that measured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 If you can put accordion reeds in a concertina, could you put concertina reeds in a melodeon(diatonic accordion) The flutina is such an instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 The accordion and concertina reeds operate under different pressure conditions...but isn't that the result rather than the aim of the design of the whole box and the reeds are just what they are? If you test a single concertina reed under the same conditions as a single (same note) accordion reed (even in the same test chamber so that the pressure is identical), the concertina reed will start under significantly less pressure. An accordion reed requires more pressure to start. That's probably why they are termed "low" and "high" pressure reeds. Low/high pressure reeds...you don't mean the opposite?? You can hardly create as high a pressure with an accordion as with a concertina so I guess that generally speaking the working pressure of concertina reeds is higher...? However and whatever pressure is created by the bellows is immaterial to the design and pressure responsiveness of the reeds. They will react as they do. ....and are accordion reeds generally louder? Yes, as an average, probably because accordion reeds tend to be harder and a bit stiffer than concertina reeds are. I also note the the hardness range of modern steel accordion reeds tends to be fairly narrow while the hardness range of steel concertina reeds is quite broad with most of them falling between the lower forties to mid fifties (Rockwell) with the notable exception being Jeffries which tops out a bit over 60. ....and.... have less dynamic range than concertina reeds? You mean they [accordion reeds] are louder at maximum but start speaking at a much louder level than concertina reeds? Is that general? Yes. .... and how is that measured? Mostly subjectively by empirical means (by us and hearsay). We've done some measured testing but not enough to definitively be able to quantify the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 What would a huffy-chuffy slow speaking bonebutton metal end Lachenal place on that scale? A 10, even though it compares poorly to a snappy little edeophone? Speaking for myself, I prefer the tone of a little rosewood-ended huffy-chuffy etc, to that of an Edeophone (we had both in the house until recently). The Franglo that Frank mentioned is basically a French melodeon realised as a concertina. That is the button layout and note assignments are the same as for a melodeon, but the construction techniques, reeds and indeed appearance are normal concertina. It is best regarded as a concertina system. Here's a picture of Colin playing one:- Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 There have also been accordion-tuned, English-made, concertinas and even a Wheatstone Bandonion, but that is another story ... And of course the legendary Lachenal Accordeaphone, of which we have one of the only 4 that still survive... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Tedrow Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 (edited) If you test a single concertina reed under the same conditions as a single (same note) accordion reed (even in the same test chamber so that the pressure is identical), the concertina reed will start under significantly less pressure. An accordion reed requires more pressure to start. That's probably why they are termed "low" and "high" pressure reeds. Taint necessarily so. I can "carve" an "accordion" reed to speak as fast as a traditional concertina reed. yessiree, I can. Bob Edited February 25, 2004 by Bob Tedrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 If you test a single concertina reed under the same conditions as a single (same note) accordion reed (even in the same test chamber so that the pressure is identical), the concertina reed will start under significantly less pressure. An accordion reed requires more pressure to start. That's probably why they are termed "low" and "high" pressure reeds. Taint necessarily so. I can "carve" an "accordion" reed to speak as fast as a traditional concertina reed. I wasn't talking about how quickly a reed begins to speak but how little pressure it takes for the reed to begin to speak. Try testing them out side/side in the same jig. With similar qualities of reed and voicing, I would be *very* surprised if you could make the accordion reed speak with less pressure than the concertina reed no matter how much "carving" you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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