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Original Pitch(Es) Of Concertinas


Terry McGee

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A friend is selling her 1915 Wheatstone English. It's set at British High Pitch, A452, presumably its original pitch. That lead me to wonder a few things:

  • were all early concertinas tuned to high pitch and either left there or subsequently tuned down? (EG. would my 1875 Lachenal Anglo originally been high pitch?)
  • or what other pitches do we find or hear of English-made concertinas tuned to?
  • Anyone ever come across a concertina tuned to A 445 (Society of Arts Pitch)?
  • Or circa 430Hz (used as a de-facto standard by modern forte-piano players)?
  • when did concertina makers adopt modern pitch? The orchestral world seemed to go there circa 1895, but Kneller Hall (responsible for the military bands) held out till 1927.
  • Given Gillian's conca is between those times, who might have used it? Salvation army, maybe?

I don't remember seeing a large role for concertina in military bands. Frightening to face the onslaught of a battalion of the Royal Fusiliers, lead by a row of High Pitch concertina players being pushed along in wheel chairs....

 

This information may well be out there, but I'd appreciate a push in the right direction (as we beginner Anglo players need from time to time...).

 

Terry

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Hi Terry, This has been covered before in a number of threads, have a look at these for starters - in the second one, I cite your wonderful website...

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=13543

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=13590

I have a 39 button CG Jeffries in a-435Hz, tuned in meantone with both d#s (draw) and Ebs (push)

Cheers

Adrian

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Wes Williams wonderful site has a chart comparing Norma, Modern, Philharmonic and several other standards of pitch:

 

http://www.concertina.net/wwpitch.htlm

 

The above link does not seem to work. Sooo...go to Aybee's first link in the previous post. then scroll down about 6 post to
Wes Williams entrée. Click on his link "here" and that will take you to the chart and comparisons.

 

Greg

 

(For some reason I can no longer pull up quotes nor paste in links on concertina.net)???

Edited by Greg Jowaisas
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Hi Terry,

 

As Adrian has mentioned, there have been quite a few threads that have discussed pitch, and not just the ones they've linked to, and it's something that has varied over the years, and between different makers, and even between different systems of concertina by the same maker. :huh:

 

For example, a 1930's H. Crabb catalogue that I have seems to indicate that Englishes/Duets were not intended to play with Anglos:

All English and Duet concertinas made by us, are tuned, equal temperament and new philharmonic (low pitch) C522 vibrations, unless otherwise ordered.

All Anglos tuned C540 unless otherwise ordered.

 

The question of pitch in Britain was a topic that prompted considerable correspondence in the columns of the journal Musical Opinion and Music Trade Review in 1899, when Wheatstone & Co. wrote:

We cordially agree with [leading piano makers] Messrs. Broadwood and Sons on this question. We are of the opinion that there should be one pitch only for all instruments; and if piano makers lead the way, makers of other instruments must follow them eventually. It appears to us that the standard should be the diapason normal de Paris, as this pitch is used almost if not quite universally now, except in this country; and we cannot see that England's "splendid (?) isolation" in this matter is at all desireable. A considerable proportion of our business is with the continent, and we never have any doubt as to which pitch to send there: we know that nothing but French pitch is wanted. On the other hand, in filling our home orders, unless the required pitch is mentioned, we are frequently at a loss which pitch to send, and, as naturally follows, we are occasionally wrong, causing trouble and annoyance to both ourselves and customers.

While pianos in England are tuned to either French, medium, or English Philharmonic pitch, and not infrequently to pitches that have no name at all (careless piano tuners have to answer for the latter), there can be no hope of doing away with the present confusion: and if Messrs. Broadwood & Sons' action is instrumental in the establishment of the continental pitch as the one and only standard for this country, we certainly think that they will have achieved a great object beneficial alike to all branches of the musical trade and profession.

We would suggest that there be some competent government authority - say Kneller Hall or the minister of education - to fix the standard and issue accurate and certificated forks, the use of unstamped forks being made illegal. We would also suggest that all pianoforte tuners should have to pass an examination and be certificated.

 

 

Wheatstone catalogues advertised that their instruments were made in "English Concertina Pitch (C 540 vibrations) unless otherwise ordered" until about 1920 when that changed to "Old Phiharmonic Pitch (C 540 vibrations) or New Phiharmonic Pitch (C 522 vibrations) unless otherwise ordered". The emphasis shfted the other way "New Phiharmonic (low pitch) C 522 vibrations or Old Phiharmonic (high pitch) C 540 vibrations unless otherwise ordered" about 1931, then changed to "New Phiharmonic (low pitch) C 522 vibrations unless otherwise ordered. PLEASE STATE PITCH REQUIRED WHEN ORDERING." in the British catalogue of circa 1935, but "New Phiharmonic (low pitch) A 440 vibrations, unless otherwise ordered." in the U.S. version. (Though correct New Phiharmonic would have been A 439.)

 

Lachenal catalogues seem not to specify any particular pitches, saying "tuned to any pitch required" but adding (about 1930):

 

Concertinas can be tuned to any of the Standard Pitches

Old Philharmonic ......... C. 540 vibrations

Society of Arts .......... C. 530 ,,

New Philharmonic ......... C. 522 ,,

[Diapason] Normal ......... C. 517-20 ,,

Customers are requested to kindly state pitch required when ordering.

 

The international "concert pitch" of A 440 Hz was only adopted at the International Standards Association Conference in May 1939, but the outbreak of World War Two delayed its implementation, whilst the Salvation Army continued to use the old "high pitch" (to suit their brass instruments) up until 1964.

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Wow, thanks all, that gives me some fresh homework to do...

 

Greg, you were worried why your link wasn't working:

 

Wes Williams wonderful site has a chart comparing Norma, Modern, Philharmonic and several other standards of pitch:

 

http://www.concertina.net/wwpitch.htlm

 

The above link does not seem to work. Sooo...go to Aybee's first link in the previous post. then scroll down about 6 post to
Wes Williams entrée. Click on his link "here" and that will take you to the chart and comparisons.

 

Greg

 

(For some reason I can no longer pull up quotes nor paste in links on concertina.net)???

 

Compare your link and the real one and there are two significant differences:

 

http://www.concertina.net/wwpitch.htlm

http://www.concertina.net/ww_pitch.html

 

Computers are like these concertina things - they go quite wrong if you don't press exactly the right button!

 

Let me assimilate all the above, and I'll come back for more!

 

Terry

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Another measure of the confusion over pitch at the time would be the cased sets of three, and four, C tuning forks (all at different pitches) that I have, which were made for piano tuners in the late 19th/early 20th century. Whilst a 1936 catalogue from the musical instrument wholesalers Barnes & Mullins shows that, by then, the Sheffield firm John Walker was manufacturing tuning forks in no less than six different pitches, but one of them was American Federation of Musicians, Universal Low Pitch A 440, which was already creeping into use in Britain:

 

002.jpg

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The question of pitch in Britain was a topic that prompted considerable correspondence in the columns of the journal Musical Opinion and Music Trade Review in 1899, when Wheatstone & Co. wrote:

 

We cordially agree with [leading piano makers] Messrs. Broadwood and Sons on this question. We are of the opinion that there should be one pitch only for all instruments; and if piano makers lead the way, makers of other instruments must follow them eventually. It appears to us that the standard should be the diapason normal de Paris, as this pitch is used almost if not quite universally now, except in this country; and we cannot see that England's "splendid (?) isolation" in this matter is at all desireable. A considerable proportion of our business is with the continent, and we never have any doubt as to which pitch to send there: we know that nothing but French pitch is wanted. On the other hand, in filling our home orders, unless the required pitch is mentioned, we are frequently at a loss which pitch to send, and, as naturally follows, we are occasionally wrong, causing trouble and annoyance to both ourselves and customers.

 

While pianos in England are tuned to either French, medium, or English Philharmonic pitch, and not infrequently to pitches that have no name at all (careless piano tuners have to answer for the latter), there can be no hope of doing away with the present confusion: and if Messrs. Broadwood & Sons' action is instrumental in the establishment of the continental pitch as the one and only standard for this country, we certainly think that they will have achieved a great object beneficial alike to all branches of the musical trade and profession.

 

We would suggest that there be some competent government authority - say Kneller Hall or the minister of education - to fix the standard and issue accurate and certificated forks, the use of unstamped forks being made illegal. We would also suggest that all pianoforte tuners should have to pass an examination and be certificated.

 

 

 

Thanks so much for posting this wonderful extract Stephen - just shows the exasperation of businesses in the face of authorities bent on 'splendid isolation'. I wonder why the UK refused to sign up to Diapason nouveau? Perhaps the representatives felt it was a French-led plot, that would only result in floods of economic migrants tuned in a-435Hz :-) Seriously though, I wonder if there are minutes, or a report on the Vienna conference of 1885 - would make interesting reading?

 

Adrian

Edited by aybee
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I wonder why the UK refused to sign up to Diapason nouveau?

 

Not so nouveau Adrian, in that it had been normal since it was set in a law passed on 16 February 1859 by the French government ;) , though perhaps not quite as "normal" as Wheatstone's letter tried to suggest...

 

For example, numerous old German-made free-reed instruments, made up until WWI, seem to have been tuned around half-a-semitone flat of our "modern" A 440 pitch (so approxmately A 427.5?), and I've had late-19th century German flutes that are as flat too.

 

And on the other side of the Atlantic, Chickering in Boston tuned his pianos to A 435, whilst Steinway in New York used a tuning fork which produced an exceptionally "High Pitch" A 457.2 (so 87 cents sharper than Chickering! :blink: )

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