New Vs. Vintage

[Guest Peter Laban]

Sorry, fault of first thread drift may rest with me

 

I don't think there's any need for blame or finger-pointing, or excuses. A conversation wanders.

[m3838]

I do have a Jeffries.

I personally don't like the sound of Jeffries, it always makes me scratch my head in disbelief that some people consider these angry honkers to be "musical" instruments, be they worth millions or sold by the 6 pack cartons. That's how far opinions can differ.

 

Some people here are reluctant to spend large sums of money for a good vintage concertina. I'd bet that many of these people are driving cars worth over $8,000 - that in ten years will be worthless.

 

A car, just like a concertina or anything else, is bought not for it's monetary worth (unless you are a Hollywood Holehead), but for it's utility. And as far as car is running, it's utility worth is not dropping a cent. A utility worth of $2000 car is questionable, so one has to consider spending more. I consider my Sienna a best buy up to date, regardless of market value.

 

While the value of a vintage concertina will have gone up.

But you can't bet on it. I wouldn't be surprized if the values will suddently drop next year, when commodities will rise, and priorities change. Nobody anticipated rise in concertina prices vs. drop in, say, guitars or pianos. One can't assess tomorrow using misunderstood experience of yesturday. Look what is happening with houses. One would think people need to live somewhere.

 

My advice in this regard is to spend $2,000 on the car and $8,000 on the concertina. If times get really tight you can always sell the concertina for at least what you paid for it

.

 

Or your car will break and concertina prices go down, and you'll be left without investment and means to go to work.

 

I don't think the decision to buy a $2,000 concertina, rather than the expensive vintage job, is necessarily a rational economic decision.

 

You are 100% correct on this.

 

But don't be telling me that's its logical to spend $8,000 on a good used car that will decline in value rather than on an expensive instrument that will go up in value.

 

That's what I'm telling you. $8000 for a good used car mean mechanical guarantees and longevity, vs. speculation about future gains in collecting expencive instruments.

There are probably not one and not two investor-collectors, who lost considerable amounts. It's like gambling, spend what you can afford to lose. If you win - good for you, but don't bet on it.

 

Nothing I own has appreciated in real value more, or given me more pleasure, than my expensive instruments. It's certainly better than money in the bank.

 

While monetarily it is not better than money in the bank, but I agree that having good instrument is benefitial. One has to consider the brief singularity of one's existence.

While the most important goal in life is, obviously, making life better for others around you, it doesn't exclude sticking to higher standards and ocasional gifts to oneself.

[Larry Stout]

The post which started this thread indicated that a somewhat newcomer to the instrument wanted a mid range instrument to play while waiting for a new Sutner or Dipper to be made. I think he wants an instrument to play, not as an investment. That's also how I think about concertinas-- what matters is the music they can produce. My car is valuable for its utility: it provides transportation with reasonable comfort, excellent gas mileage, and low maintenance. A similar criterion for a concertina would be good action, air tightness, and an excellent tone. My vintage Wheatstones do meet that criterion (some better than others on the airtightness). Others who have boxes by Morse, Edgely, Tedrow and are quite happy with them.

 

I agree that having a good instrument is beneficial. Having an excellent one is even better once you master it. Fortunately there are several options along the way.

[David Levine]

$8000 for a good used car mean mechanical guarantees and longevity...

 

There are plenty of cars out there selling for more than $8,000 that aren't very good.

When your car is rusting in a junkyard my concertina will still be playing.

My 98 Mazda Demio (€2,300, 110K miles) is still going strong.

But my Jeffries is better than ever.

I've been playing it since 1990.

 

I doubt we're seeing a concdertina "bubble." Jeef Wooff's pipes go for over $20K dollars now.

A 1920 Lloyd Loar Gibson F5 will approach $100,000 at auction.

We won't mention old Italian violins.

 

The best cars -- like even the most expensive foods - will turn to crap in the end.

My concertina has at least another 300 million tunes and a hundred years left in it.

[chiton1]

Does your son know how lucky he is to have a father like you?

 

 

He was twelve when he got his present concertina, while he 'd be practising away we'd sit in the other room with a silly grin on our faces from enjoying the sound and tone of the concertina. Sums it all up doesn't it?

 

 

Apparently the father knows how lucky he is to have a son that plays the concertina!

[Paul Read]

Does your son know how lucky he is to have a father like you?

 

 

He was twelve when he got his present concertina, while he 'd be practising away we'd sit in the other room with a silly grin on our faces from enjoying the sound and tone of the concertina. Sums it all up doesn't it?

 

 

Apparently the father knows how lucky he is to have a son that plays the concertina!

Yeah, mine plays melodeon

[m3838]

I doubt we're seeing a concdertina "bubble." Jeef Wooff's pipes go for over $20K dollars now.

Buy and Sell section shows it's not easy to sell expensive instrument, so posession alone doesn't guarantee monetary gain. It's not part of your financial portfolio, so Banks will not be persuaded to give you a loan, unless you show them profit from posessing these instruments. The only possibility is to sell fast under market value, when you need the money and decide not to play anymore. This too, may not turn any results and you may end up borrowing on conditions (if lucky), having not sold the instrument yet.

So untill you sold yours, don't count on it having appreciated in value. You'll find out only after having sold it, but then where's the gain?

Lastly, it's not true that cars depreciate. Usually people use automobiles for function. One has to add gain from the function to depreciation of an automobile.

Other words, you use to to commute to work. Add your salary number for all the time you used your car to it's market value. The more you use it, the more worn and more expencive it gets.

We're talking about US here, of course. Car in Europe is an unnecessary luxury, if I still lived in Minsk, I'd never even think of a personal motorized contraption.

But the price issue caught me with my pants down. I was of the opinion that $2000 can buy you a decent instrument. Only marginally so.

[chiton1]

I do have a Jeffries.

I personally don't like the sound of Jeffries, it always makes me scratch my head in disbelief that some people consider these angry honkers to be "musical" instruments, be they worth millions or sold by the 6 pack cartons. That's how far opinions can differ.

 

Oh yes they are beautiful musical instruments - apparently beauty is in the ear of the beholder!

 

Some people here are reluctant to spend large sums of money for a good vintage concertina. I'd bet that many of these people are driving cars worth over $8,000 - that in ten years will be worthless.

 

A car, just like a concertina or anything else, is bought not for it's monetary worth (unless you are a Hollywood Holehead), but for it's utility. And as far as car is running, it's utility worth is not dropping a cent. A utility worth of $2000 car is questionable, so one has to consider spending more. I consider my Sienna a best buy up to date, regardless of market value.

 

I think the issue here is that people have their priorities set, and that many do not question buying a car for a lot of money (as it is utilitary - and to many it is their castle also), but a concertina is just for fooling around and perhaps considered luxury (and one should not spend too much money on luxury).

 

While the value of a vintage concertina will have gone up.

But you can't bet on it. I wouldn't be surprized if the values will suddently drop next year, when commodities will rise, and priorities change. Nobody anticipated rise in concertina prices vs. drop in, say, guitars or pianos. One can't assess tomorrow using misunderstood experience of yesturday. Look what is happening with houses. One would think people need to live somewhere.

 

You can bet that your car (unless you buy a special vintage car of course) will drop in value until there is no value left at all. A vintage concertina has all the advantages a good violin has too (although prices are much more reasonable). When well cared off they keep on playing. And as vintage concertina's are relatively rare I am sure they will keep their value (if not increase it). I would bet on the concertina anytime.

What happened to houses is that people lived in houses too expensive for them, and the banks were giving loans to people who couldn't afford. That is asking for trouble by both the banks and the people. My experience is that nothing in this life is certain, but that normally quality will keep its worth.

 

My advice in this regard is to spend $2,000 on the car and $8,000 on the concertina. If times get really tight you can always sell the concertina for at least what you paid for it

.

 

Or your car will break and concertina prices go down, and you'll be left without investment and means to go to work.

 

Yea sure...

 

I don't think the decision to buy a $2,000 concertina, rather than the expensive vintage job, is necessarily a rational economic decision.

 

You are 100% correct on this.

 

But don't be telling me that's its logical to spend $8,000 on a good used car that will decline in value rather than on an expensive instrument that will go up in value.

 

That's what I'm telling you. $8000 for a good used car mean mechanical guarantees and longevity, vs. speculation about future gains in collecting expencive instruments.

There are probably not one and not two investor-collectors, who lost considerable amounts. It's like gambling, spend what you can afford to lose. If you win - good for you, but don't bet on it.

 

I am a salesman and I am always gambling. If I wouldn't gamble I wouldn't earn a dime (and I couldn't buy these vintage concertina's!). In fact you should buy a good car and a good concertina, at least as good as your purse can afford. I started off with a simple brass reed Lachenal EC and no car at all, but at that time my purse was almost empty.

 

Nothing I own has appreciated in real value more, or given me more pleasure, than my expensive instruments. It's certainly better than money in the bank.

 

While monetarily it is not better than money in the bank, but I agree that having good instrument is benefitial. One has to consider the brief singularity of one's existence.

While the most important goal in life is, obviously, making life better for others around you, it doesn't exclude sticking to higher standards and ocasional gifts to oneself.

 

Due to bad banking (giving huge loans to people who can't afford it) your bank can go bankrupt, but I will buy your tortoiseshell ended Wheatstone baritone anytime

Anyway we all agree that playing a good instrument is a pleasure that cannot be expressed in monetary value. If you can afford it buy a vintage instrument, if you can't you will have to settle for the best your money can buy.

Edited June 12, 2008 by chiton1

[Bob Tedrow]

Have Tedrow, Edgley, et. al., considered making a box with real concertina reeds?

I'm sure that we all have *considered* it. It doesn't take much consideration to realize that making real concertina reeds is either incredibly labor intensive to make them one-off by hand or very expensive to make them by machine (tens of thousands of dollars). Providing that one has the time and money (and can deal with the slow to no-payback depending on volume), both scenarios take a lot of skill and knowledge to develop the reed design and to be able to fabricate them well.

 

 

 

-- Rich --

 

I can make a *very* nice traditional concertina reed/brass shoe assembly. I have obsessed over a procedure for many years and have made many many dozens (not hundreds) of traditional reeds.

 

It takes *me* WELL over an hour to cut the reed, rough it out, cut the brass shoe to size, cut the vent to size, fit the reed; bell the reed shoe; drill and tap the brass shoe and install the reed into the frame, rough tune the reed, install the reed; measure and fine tune then voice the reed.

 

Albeit fascinating, this is not romantic work by any stretch of the imagination. To repeat 60 times is real work and will triple the price of a concertina from my shop.

 

Concertinas with good handmade traditional reeds are worth every single penny they cost.

 

Bob Tedrow

Edited June 13, 2008 by Bob Tedrow

[ceemonster]

[Concertinas with handmade traditional reeds are worth every single penny they cost.]

 

agreed----the contemporary ones, that is. the vintage concertinas currently going for $12-14k

are not. well, only in the subjective sense of, "worth what someone will pay for it," or in the market sense of, market "worth." but in real-value terms.....nope. unlike the poster above, i love the sound of jeffries. but, nope. they have now become a more-money-than-sense purchase.

[chiton1]

[Concertinas with handmade traditional reeds are worth every single penny they cost.]

 

agreed----the contemporary ones, that is. the vintage concertinas currently going for $12-14k

are not. well, only in the subjective sense of, "worth what someone will pay for it," or in the market sense of, market "worth." but in real-value terms.....nope. unlike the poster above, i love the sound of jeffries. but, nope. they have now become a more-money-than-sense purchase.

 

 

I just sold a 38 button Jeffries (from a friend to a friend) for 4000 euro (bellows and straps have to be replaced). But it sounded so much nicer than the Crabb it will replace (although not a bad instrument either).

I think many concertina players are not used to spend money for their instruments (ah the times when you could buy an Aeola or Jeffries for 20 pounds....). An average new violin will costs you more than a perfect Jeffries. Classical musicians (not only pros) are spending big money on their instruments. If you do not have the money, buy what you can. If you have the money and you love the sound of a Jeffries, buy it. If you prefer a new Suttner or Dipper or whatever, buy those. Demand may have raised the prices of Jeffries concertinas but they are worth every penny for those who love the sound of it.

[Guest Peter Laban]

the contemporary ones, that is. the vintage concertinas currently going for $12-14k

are not.

 

The only way to determine that is to play them side by side. If you're willing and ready to put down that amount of money, then the nicer one is certainly worth it (and then the other one can still be worth it as well).

Edited June 13, 2008 by Peter Laban

[Woody]

We're talking about US here, of course. Car in Europe is an unnecessary luxury

If my car is an unnecessary luxury - how am I supposed to get around? And why is it different for the yanks?

[m3838]

We're talking about US here, of course. Car in Europe is an unnecessary luxury

If my car is an unnecessary luxury - how am I supposed to get around? And why is it different for the yanks?

 

 

Ouside of "downtown", where nobody lives, USA is a large wide spread village. In many (most) "cities" the "sidewalk" is only a narrow path alonside the highway, and you are not guaranteed it will not end all of a sudden.

lonely pedestrian turns heads just like pretty blond in Pakistan.

If you fly over New York and look down, you'll see vast single house settlement, covering the Earth from horizon to horizon with it's grey blanket.

Social life is designed around it. Schools and stores are huge, and may be far from home, there is no such thing like neighborhood bakery, most reliable shopping activity is concentrated in separately located "malls" etc. San Francisco, Seattle, New York (Manhattan), Boston, Charleston and a few places still maintain walking culture, but most of the US is behind the wheel. So much so, that large and unyealdy Piano Accordion is considered "portable".

[Woody]

We're talking about US here, of course. Car in Europe is an unnecessary luxury

If my car is an unnecessary luxury - how am I supposed to get around? And why is it different for the yanks?

 

 

Ouside of "downtown", where nobody lives, USA is a large wide spread village. In many (most) "cities" the "sidewalk" is only a narrow path alonside the highway, and you are not guaranteed it will not end all of a sudden.

lonely pedestrian turns heads just like pretty blond in Pakistan.

If you fly over New York and look down, you'll see vast single house settlement, covering the Earth from horizon to horizon with it's grey blanket.

Social life is designed around it. Schools and stores are huge, and may be far from home, there is no such thing like neighborhood bakery, most reliable shopping activity is concentrated in separately located "malls" etc. San Francisco, Seattle, New York (Manhattan), Boston, Charleston and a few places still maintain walking culture, but most of the US is behind the wheel. So much so, that large and unyealdy Piano Accordion is considered "portable".

Thanks for the guide to the US, but its not really necessary as I've been there several times & I've got a TV. What I don't understand is why you think a car is a luxury if you live in Europe.

[m3838]

Thanks for the guide to the US, but its not really necessary as I've been there several times & I've got a TV. What I don't understand is why you think a car is a luxury if you live in Europe.

 

Oh, sorry. I misunderstood.

I can only judge by my experience in Austria, Italy, and former USSR.

In Italy I lived in small towns of Santa Marinella, Santa Severa, Chivittavekkia, and Ladispoli. Ocasional trips to Rome. Never needed an automobile, never even the quesion arose. Same in Vienna, but perhaps it could be handy in small towns on Czeck border.

Interesting fact, in San Francisco, in 1911, people reached destinations 30% faster on average (for what it worth), than in 2000. Even today the light rail is seen through the pavement in places, where it is most desireable, but it's been killed.

Don't know about GB, but if an average speed in London is 6mph...

From which I conclude that in large enough cities and tows of tightly populated Europe personal transportation is a luxury, like a chicken.

BTW, in the US driving is still not a right, but a priviledge, as opposed to posessing fire arms.

Back to free reeds, Piano Accordion is official instrument of San Francisco, that's how sick it is. (may be it's the fog.)

[Paul Read]

Thanks for the guide to the US, but its not really necessary as I've been there several times & I've got a TV. What I don't understand is why you think a car is a luxury if you live in Europe.

 

Oh, sorry. I misunderstood.

I can only judge by my experience in Austria, Italy, and former USSR.

In Italy I lived in small towns of Santa Marinella, Santa Severa, Chivittavekkia, and Ladispoli. Ocasional trips to Rome. Never needed an automobile, never even the quesion arose. Same in Vienna, but perhaps it could be handy in small towns on Czeck border.

Interesting fact, in San Francisco, in 1911, people reached destinations 30% faster on average (for what it worth), than in 2000. Even today the light rail is seen through the pavement in places, where it is most desireable, but it's been killed.

Don't know about GB, but if an average speed in London is 6mph...

From which I conclude that in large enough cities and tows of tightly populated Europe personal transportation is a luxury, like a chicken.

BTW, in the US driving is still not a right, but a priviledge, as opposed to posessing fire arms.

Back to free reeds, Piano Accordion is official instrument of San Francisco, that's how sick it is. (may be it's the fog.)

 

pgidley, I hope that answers your question.............

[tombilly]

tightly populated Europe

 

A lot of Europe is rural, M38238

 

We live in rural Ireland - there is practically zero public transport. There are still a few old bachelors and spinsters around, living quiet lives, who would only go into town once a month or so. But for most of us, the car and the rising cost of fuel is a big issue. We used to manage with one car but the demands of a working life and family life with 4 kids meant we had to get a second a few years back.

 

But I agree in general with Cocus's sentiment. I bought another instrument there a while back and there was my teenage daughter 'giving out' to me - "hey Dad, you just spent Euro x000 on that and you already have one - you coulda taken me on a holiday to xyz" etc. !! So there am I - "well, you'll be enjoying the music from this for many years to come, long after you've forgotten about the holiday" -- but it didn't really wash!!

Edited June 13, 2008 by tombilly