m3838 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I don't know about that $400 Lachenal... where do you find those? Aside from broken ones that need major work? I've been shopping around, and the best deal I can find in used/antique concertinas is a rebuilt 26 button lachenal for ~$2000. I'm sure a lachenal in good shape is a vastly superior instrument to the Rochelle, but I'd be weary of buying one that costs $400 unless you know it's in fully playable condition. I guess my price idea is out of date. The one I was playing in Youtube video was bought in playable condition (from another player) for $500 a few years ago. 26 button is entirely different league, they are small, yet chromatic, light, yet capable etc. So their prices may be higher than full 30 button models. $2000 for a Lachenal means it's a high level instrument, or I'm completely out of wack. I'd say, if you are ready to spend $600-700 for an instrument that will hold it's value and last a lifetime (a lifetime, not just a few years) - then it's a good starting point. Other than that Rochelle may be ideal. I just listened to some youtube clips with Rochelle and am not very impressed. But why not use Button Box' peruse program to check it for yourself? I'm cheap. I like junk, it doesn't make me feel bad about using and modifying it any way I want. But for my kids I'd go for the best. Life is only given once. Here's one, probably steel reeds, higher caliber, judging by ends. Bellows need to be replaced - $200-300, may need tuning $100. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...n#ht_500wt_1149 What do other people on this forum think? Esp. makers and repairers? It's for the child, join in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varney Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 To all you folks who were kind enough to offer advice may I say a big 'Thank You'. I really hadn't a clue about concertinas when I started this thread but thanks to the wealth of information you all contributed I'm much more educated in what to look for. I wouldn't say I've reached any definite conclusion but at least I've decided a couple of things: 1. a regular sized instrument is the way to go. Even though she's only a small six year old she'll adapt to the instrument she's given. If I went for anything in a reduced size it's only going to make things harder if and when she moves on to a regular instrument. 2. "Buy the best instrument you can afford" is good advice, but probably means "Buy the best instrument you CAN"T afford"!!! I was set to go with a Rochelle but then people were suggesting that for a bit more money you could get a 'real' concertina - e.g. a wooden end Lachenal. I've now started to look for one of these but it's a lot more than I can really afford to pay. On a personal aesthetic note, ( and I know this has nothing to do with the playability of an instrument, ) - I think that while the Rochelles may be superior in internal construction to the Stagis etc they look pretty awful. Surely the Rochelle makers could have opted for something more attractive than glassy black celluoid and cartoon-like f-holes? At least the Stagis look like concertinas and have wooden or metal ends with reproduction fretwork. I know this will get a blast of criticism but it's based purely on a visual assessment! Once again - many thanks from a confused forty-something Dad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varney Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Just out of curiosity - are these Rochelles or another chinese company imitating them--- they certainly look similar: http://cgi.ebay.com/Anglo-Concertina-Accor...e#ht_2445wt_941 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter Laban Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 The e-bay listing says it was made by the Ktone Workshop, which is Chinese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boney Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 There are many cheap Chinese concertinas, many designed before the Rochelle, that look quite similar at first glance. The action is almost certainly cheaper and clunkier. Also, notice the air button on the right hand side way up near the other buttons, an awkward spot. The Rochelle has it much closer to the handrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Just out of curiosity - are these Rochelles or another chinese company imitating them--- they certainly look similar:http://cgi.ebay.com/Anglo-Concertina-Accor...e#ht_2445wt_941 No. I.e., I believe it's the same company in China making them, but contracted by a different dealer -- Wim Wakker for the Rochelle, -- who himself is a maker of high quality concertinas and who therefore has the knowledge and commitment to see that the Rochelle is constructed with the proper dimensions (not some careless approximation) and superior workmanship. If it doesn't have the name "Rochelle", then it's not a real Rochelle. Those others have been available for a longer time, but were apparently commissioned by someone who either doesn't know or doesn't care about the precise details of button placement. Sometimes even some of the buttons sound the wrong notes. Wim does his own quality control to insure that factory errors do not get delivered to customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susanne Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I think your biggest priority should be finding one the right size for your child, otherwise they won't be able to play it properly and will lose interest, and your money will be wasted. Given the fact hundreds of young children seem to be managing OK with average concertina sizes I wonder how big of a priority this really is. That's why I said the right size. She's 6 years old - if she can handle a normal-sized concertina then no problem, but if not... The problem then would be getting hold of a smaller one. Even then, many (if nto most) smaller instruments still have the normal button spacing. I must admit that I have no experience of teaching children, but gut instinct tell me that if they can't physically handle the instrument then they won't make much progress. and will lose interest. Perhaps the answer is to try a normal-size instrument and see how she gets on. If it's too big for her, put it aside for a year or two, and in the meantime she could try something like a whistle, to maintain her interest in music and to build up a repertoire of tunes. I'd say if you want a cheap concertina, Stagi and the likes are better for a child. I think the playability of the Stagi (and similar) and the Rochelle is similar, but the Rochelle sure is big and inconvenient for a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re Lachenal, what some folks were suggesting was a 20-button like this one from the respected dealer Chris Algar, which might be in your price range. This might work out, but bear in mind that some of the notes from the 30-button (notably C#) aren't on a 20-button at all. It's possible to work around that (as in David Boveri's recording of Silver Spear which he made to demonstrate this point) but it might be tricky for a 6-year-old. And like you, I don't care for the look of the Rochelle, but it plays very well for the price. Daniel To all you folks who were kind enough to offer advice may I say a big 'Thank You'. I really hadn't a clue about concertinas when I started this thread but thanks to the wealth of information you all contributed I'm much more educated in what to look for. I wouldn't say I've reached any definite conclusion but at least I've decided a couple of things: 1. a regular sized instrument is the way to go. Even though she's only a small six year old she'll adapt to the instrument she's given. If I went for anything in a reduced size it's only going to make things harder if and when she moves on to a regular instrument. 2. "Buy the best instrument you can afford" is good advice, but probably means "Buy the best instrument you CAN"T afford"!!! I was set to go with a Rochelle but then people were suggesting that for a bit more money you could get a 'real' concertina - e.g. a wooden end Lachenal. I've now started to look for one of these but it's a lot more than I can really afford to pay. On a personal aesthetic note, ( and I know this has nothing to do with the playability of an instrument, ) - I think that while the Rochelles may be superior in internal construction to the Stagis etc they look pretty awful. Surely the Rochelle makers could have opted for something more attractive than glassy black celluoid and cartoon-like f-holes? At least the Stagis look like concertinas and have wooden or metal ends with reproduction fretwork. I know this will get a blast of criticism but it's based purely on a visual assessment! Once again - many thanks from a confused forty-something Dad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter Laban Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re Lachenal, what some folks were suggesting was a 20-button like this one from the respected dealer Chris Algar, which might be in your price range. This might work out, but bear in mind that some of the notes from the 30-button (notably C#) aren't on a 20-button at all. It's possible to work around that (as in David Boveri's recording of Silver Spear which he made to demonstrate this point) but it might be tricky for a 6-year-old. The 20 button my son started on did have a C# but it was in an awkward corner. He managed it. Many people (including myself) always play the Silver Spear without any c in it so that demonstration really doesn't mean anything at all. Maybe David should make the point playing the Monaghan Twig, The Sunset or a tune like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'd say if you want a cheap concertina, Stagi and the likes are better for a child. I think the playability of the Stagi (and similar) and the Rochelle is similar, but the Rochelle sure is big and inconvenient for a child. You'll find though that Stagi's price is twice the Rochelle's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I know this will get a blast of criticism... I haven't seen the blast yet, but... On a personal aesthetic note, ( and I know this has nothing to do with the playability of an instrument, ) - I think that while the Rochelles may be superior in internal construction to the Stagis etc they look pretty awful. Surely the Rochelle makers could have opted for something more attractive than glassy black celluoid and cartoon-like f-holes? Probably not. As I noted in another post, the manufacturer of the Rochelle was already making "concertinas" using "glassy black celluloid and cartoon-like f-holes", which I believe is one reason why Wim chose them to make the Rochelle: He didn't need to raise the money to build the entire manufactory from scratch. I expect that more intricate fretwork and real metal or wooden ends would each add substantially to the construction cost, and thereby to the retail purchase price. If the Rochelle is all you can afford right now, would you really want it to be more expensive? Would you be willing to pay an extra fifty (euros, dollars, pounds) for even cheap metal or wooden ends? A hundred? Two hundred? But if your daughter enjoys the Rochelle and progresses with it, most (all?) of the official dealers will let you trade it in later on a better (and prettier) instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 The 20 button my son started on did have a C# but it was in an awkward corner. He managed it. Was that original spec, or a later modification? Modifications also cost money, and I don't know what the chances are of finding an existing 20-button C/G that already has that mod, but I suspect they're pretty slim. P.S. Where was the C# located? And what octave? (You didn't use the plural.) P.P.S. As far as I know, use of notes in nonstandard locations isn't a topic covered in any of the current tutor books or videos. A live teacher might be able to handle it, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter Laban Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) The concertina was an old two row we had on loan from a friend, a 'Raven'. The C# was located, as far as I remember, at the end of one of the rows (I remember that it was a bit of a stretch for him, he was seven at the time. I'll ask him as soon as he gets home, he's making his way back from a school tour to Italy. With his concertina by the way, a group of them played out there). It was the concertina he started on, basically to see if he would stick with it, and within a year he moved on to a 30 button Lachenal. It was really not an issue, once told where the C# was he dealt with it. The change over to the Lachenal was fairly seamless. Edited October 15, 2009 by Peter Laban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 As far as I know, use of notes in nonstandard locations isn't a topic covered in any of the current tutor books or videos. A live teacher might be able to handle it, though. It was really not an issue, once told where the C# was he dealt with it. Yes, indeed. If motivated to play, anyone (child, adult... or even adolescent ) can easily overcome minor -- and often major -- "discrepancies". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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