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Concertina Used In Bluegrass


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bluegrass...concertina....I still do it...a lot. No complaints...to my face...recently.

 

I suggest that English is less of a shocker than AC. It can weave in and out hiding to come up for a break where a smooth lightening fast romp turns heads and gets a few grins. Bounce and lift...not so much with the grassholes. Both work for me, but that chromatic instrument has an easier time passing. Besides, I'll pick up the sunflower and spank out a few songs, like the sunny side of the mountain, then back to the tina for 8-more miles to Louisville. End of story.

Edited by Mark Evans
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I am having trouble getting the YouTube link to work, even the 2nd version. Says "The URL contained a malformed video ID". Can't even seem to find that particular video by searching. I am interested to see it.

 

In any case, I figured I would learn that there are some other bluegrass concertina players out there. Interesting that others are using the English rather than the Anglo. I find that the Anglo works pretty well for about any song, but the fast instrumental tunes are difficult (for me at least). Perhaps the English is better for the instrumental tunes.

 

I am 100% self-taught on the Anglo Chromatic, and I honestly don't know how conventional my style or techniques are, or what kind of music my style of playing is best suited for.

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In any case, I figured I would learn that there are some other bluegrass concertina players out there. Interesting that others are using the English rather than the Anglo. I find that the Anglo works pretty well for about any song, but the fast instrumental tunes are difficult (for me at least). Perhaps the English is better for the instrumental tunes.

 

Is your goal to play with others? Bluegrass is by nature a communal activity. Tempi are on the swift side. OT is communal, but the fiddler or banjo player often can be seen as the solitary wanderer playing and singing alone.

 

The style Dick demonstrates I think is perfectly at home in the OT genre and his song has been often done, less so bluegrass unless a few clicks faster with the off beat accentuated (beats 2 & 4). If you are playing with bluegrass musicians, the mandolin will most likely take care of the off beat. The company you keep kind of dictates which side of the line to hang out on.

 

EC or AC is unimportant. What you are comfortable with is. Make it work

 

Are there any bluegrass jam sessions in your area? It might be fun to just go and see.

 

On free reed instruments in bluegrass other than the occational harmonica: Bill Monroe toured with a PC player in the band. Long, long time ago. My group Obi's Boys is seen as a novelty act...neither fish nor foul. I play 50-50 banjo and concertina and we mix in all sorts of genre. The same was true of my old band Shady Grove. Today they play traditional Bluegrass.

 

The musicians involved are mostly welcoming...give it a shot.

Edited by Mark Evans
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Thanks for your information, Mark. I agree with what you say. I am pretty much committed to the AC and making it work for what I want to do. No thoughts of switching to the EC.

 

I started out playing Celtic music on the concertina with others a long time ago. But since I picked it up again about a year and a half ago and started playing mainly bluegrass, I have played mostly by myself. But I am starting to play more with others, and record some songs with others, and hope to more in the future. As things progress and I learn more tunes, I may try to find a local session. I also attend about 1 bluegrass festival per year, which presents some opportunities.

 

You mention Bill Monroe touring "with a PC player in the band". What do you mean by "PC", and assuming it is a concertina, did he record anything with it?

 

Anyway, you have a lot of experience about this subject, and if you could download my experimental Bluegrass Concertina album, listen a bit, and give me some feed back on how you think I can improve my playing (never mind the singing), I would appreciate it.

 

In any case, I figured I would learn that there are some other bluegrass concertina players out there. Interesting that others are using the English rather than the Anglo. I find that the Anglo works pretty well for about any song, but the fast instrumental tunes are difficult (for me at least). Perhaps the English is better for the instrumental tunes.

 

Is your goal to play with others? Bluegrass is by nature a communal activity. Tempi are on the swift side. OT is communal, but the fiddler or banjo player often can be seen as the solitary wanderer playing and singing alone.

 

The style Dick demonstrates I think is perfectly at home in the OT genre and his song has been often done, less so bluegrass unless a few clicks faster with the off beat accentuated (beats 2 & 4). If you are playing with bluegrass musicians, the mandolin will most likely take care of the off beat. The company you keep kind of dictates which side of the line to hang out on.

 

EC or AC is unimportant. What you are comfortable with is. Make it work

 

Are there any bluegrass jam sessions in your area? It might be fun to just go and see.

 

On free reed instruments in bluegrass other than the occational harmonica: Bill Monroe toured with a PC player in the band. Long, long time ago. My group Obi's Boys is seen as a novelty act...neither fish nor foul. I play 50-50 banjo and concertina and we mix in all sorts of genre. The same was true of my old band Shady Grove. Today they play traditional Bluegrass.

 

The musicians involved are mostly welcoming...give it a shot.

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According to The Music of Bill Monroe (Rosenberg & Wolfe) "...Monroe wanted an accordian in his band because his mother had played the instrument at Rasine when he was growing up. In all probability however Monroe's mother played a small one-or-two row button accordion..."

 

So not only did Monroe think a free reed was part of the Bluegrass sound - he seems to have been thinking of a button box! B)

 

It seems very likely from a quick look over of the book that the Blue Grass Boys played for the Grand Old Opry with an accordion player as a member.

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According to The Music of Bill Monroe (Rosenberg & Wolfe) "...Monroe wanted an accordian in his band because his mother had played the instrument at Rasine when he was growing up. In all probability however Monroe's mother played a small one-or-two row button accordion..."

 

So not only did Monroe think a free reed was part of the Bluegrass sound - he seems to have been thinking of a button box! B)

 

It seems very likely from a quick look over of the book that the Blue Grass Boys played for the Grand Old Opry with an accordion player as a member.

I am fairly sure I have seen photographs of Maybelle Carter with a piano accordion.

 

I wouldn't be suprised Dick. Once the Carter family children started touring with the grown-ups, the PA (sorry for the typo earlier) was a part of their sound. I forget which of Maybelle's daughters was assigned PA duty but a wonderful book Will you miss me when I'm gone gives the low-down. Wonderful page turner.

 

Yes, Bill's mother played the single row button box. The biography Can't you hear me calling gives a brief view on their relationship. She played and sang and Bill was very connected to her. Her early death left him adrift. His uncle Pen (fiddler) and a black blues guitarist, harmonica player, singer became his anchor. Many interesting influences there. His mother and uncle Pen were of Dutch heritage, poppa was Scottish and the black musician (I'm recalling Paul Schwartz...my feeble mind is not trustable here and I'm sure one of our members will set me straight) gave him a very deep pool of experiences. All these bits and pieces are what keeps me connected to bluegrass even when I get a bit frustrated at a growing trend in American bluegrass circles towards exclusion and osification rather than the long standing tradition of inclusion.

 

Good luck on your journey Old Bevins and you can bet I'll download your experimental bluegrass concertina album. There ain't many of us box players rollin' around in the bluegrass and we've got to stick together ;) .

Edited by Mark Evans
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I figured that "PC" may have been a typo for Piano Accordian. Roy Acuff had an accordian quite regularly on his early old-timey, classic country music recordings from around the 1940's, and it sounded great. I recommend the Roy Acuff Proper Box Set. It is a 4 CD set that includes a lot of these earlier songs. Considering he is known as the "King of Country" music, it is a little strange that others did not follow suit. The influence of rock and roll on country music in the 50's probably didn't help the cause. Even Roy pretty much dropped the accordian from his records in his later years.

 

In any case, if "THE MAN", the inventor of Bluegrass, wasn't opposed to having an accordian in his band, then that pretty much settles it. Whatever the purists, grass holes, or whatever you want to call them say, there is absolutely no historical or traditional reason why bluegrass music cannot include the concertina.

 

By the way, I think the "traditional" bluegrass band lineup is more influenced by the popularity of "string bands" in the early 20th century than anything else.

 

 

According to The Music of Bill Monroe (Rosenberg & Wolfe) "...Monroe wanted an accordian in his band because his mother had played the instrument at Rasine when he was growing up. In all probability however Monroe's mother played a small one-or-two row button accordion..."

 

So not only did Monroe think a free reed was part of the Bluegrass sound - he seems to have been thinking of a button box! B)

 

It seems very likely from a quick look over of the book that the Blue Grass Boys played for the Grand Old Opry with an accordion player as a member.

I am fairly sure I have seen photographs of Maybelle Carter with a piano accordion.

 

I wouldn't be suprised Dick. Once the Carter family children started touring with the grown-ups, the PA (sorry for the typo earlier) was a part of their sound. I forget which of Maybelle's daughters was assigned PA duty but a wonderful book Will you miss me when I'm gone gives the low-down. Wonderful page turner.

 

Yes, Bill's mother played the single row button box. The biography Can't you hear me calling gives a brief view on their relationship. She played and sang and Bill was very connected to her. Her early death left him adrift. His uncle Pen (fiddler) and a black blues guitarist, harmonica player, singer became his anchor. Many interesting influences there. His mother and uncle Pen were of Dutch heritage, poppa was Scottish and the black musician (I'm recalling Paul Schwartz...my feeble mind is not trustable here and I'm sure one of our members will set me straight) gave him a very deep pool of experiences. All these bits and pieces are what keeps me connected to bluegrass even when I get a bit frustrated at a growing trend in American bluegrass circles towards exclusion and osification rather than the long standing tradition of inclusion.

 

Good luck on your journey Old Bevins and you can bet I'll download your experimental bluegrass concertina album. There ain't many of us box players rollin' around in the bluegrass and we've got to stick together ;) .

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By the way, I think the "traditional" bluegrass band lineup is more influenced by the popularity of "string bands" in the early 20th century than anything else.

 

I wouldn't dissagree!

 

Oh, my mind came out of neutral whille mopping the floors just now. The last name of the blues musician was Schultze not Schwartz.

 

Roy was the man indeed!

Edited by Mark Evans
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I think this is the one

 

jimmiebrown the newsboy

 

Thanks

Leo

thankyou leo

 

By the way, thanks for this link. It is an excellent rendition of Jimmy Brown the Newsboy. Excellent singing voice also. I've never heard it done with a Brittish accent. I think A.P. Carter would be pleased (I believe he wrote the song).

 

There are a lot similar old songs like that done with the concertina on my Bluegrass Concertina album (even if my singing is not as good, and the concertina is the Anglo). In fact, there are relatively few songs on the album that the composer is known, and I'm not aware that any of the songs were written after 1900. Check it out.

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By the way, thanks for this link. It is an excellent rendition of Jimmy Brown the Newsboy. Excellent singing voice also. I've never heard it done with a Brittish accent. I think A.P. Carter would be pleased (I believe he wrote the song).

 

A.P. Carter was a "collector" of songs. He spent many years visiting folks in those Virginia "hollers" They were overjoyed to sing their songs for him. He wrote them down, reworked wording, form, tune and affixed his name. No doubt the Carter Family saved this material from certain oblivion, but how much of it he composed from his own resouces is murky at best.

Edited by Mark Evans
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I have not posted in a while as I have been busy playing banjo in a new Wisconsin bluegrass band, "The Northern Pikers". We are a very traditional 5-piece bluegrass band. However, I have been continuing to work on my Jack and do pull it out when we play the old Monroe tune, "In the Pines". The other guys in the band are still a little unsure about it, but I like it. In fact, the last time we played it at a gig...as we were finishing up the tune, our bass player says, "Creepy....". I'm still waiting for a copy of that show, but when I get it, I'll try to post a copy.

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I have not posted in a while as I have been busy playing banjo in a new Wisconsin bluegrass band, "The Northern Pikers". We are a very traditional 5-piece bluegrass band. However, I have been continuing to work on my Jack and do pull it out when we play the old Monroe tune, "In the Pines". The other guys in the band are still a little unsure about it, but I like it. In fact, the last time we played it at a gig...as we were finishing up the tune, our bass player says, "Creepy....". I'm still waiting for a copy of that show, but when I get it, I'll try to post a copy.

 

Check out my version of "In the Pines" on the Bluegrass Concertina album. Some of my listeners say it is one of the favorites on the album.

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Since this thread first came around I’ve taught a few workshops in playing American music on the concertina. It’s tricky to articulate what makes American music sound the way it does. Of course, I agree that you should play what you like, regardless of the instrument, genre and listener expectations. Still it’s good to know what you are doing and where it comes from. Your ear, and what sounds good to you should determine what and how you play. That said, I’ve not found modern bluegrass and my Anglo concertina to be a good fit. OT works for me and you can hear my attempts here.

 

For reasons that are subtle, OT seems to me to be a more inclusive and fuzzy genre whereas Bluegrass has a more rigid format. The few times I’ve tried BG, I did not like the contribution I was making to the group, I thought I sounded out of place. Not to say it can’t be done Mark, but the natural inclinations of the bellows driven free reeds make them stand out instead of fit into the Bluegrass band. Fitting in is important if you want to be more than a novelty.

 

There are a few things that I do to help make OT AC work. Below is a short list of the points I make in my workshops and I do invite comments about these ideas.

 

  • When I play, I listen closely and match my rhythm to that of the other instruments. Agreement on both the emphasis on the back beat and the unevenness of the eighth notes (the swing) are key to joining the band.
     
     
  • OT, Bluegrass and lots of other American music frequently anticipates the phrase and jumps in early ahead of the downbeat.
     
     
  • My instrument is loud... I try to take care not to play loud very often and to leave lots of space for all of the instruments to be heard.
     
     
  • It’s not just volume that gives the unwelcome sense that the concertina is playing over everybody and dominating the sound. Picked strings have a fast decay to their sound. After a short attack they back off. I try to let each of my notes do the same... except when I don’t. When I play longer notes, I’m usually thinking of the fiddle and behaving like one. Bluegrass instruments that play longer notes are fiddle, dobro and slide guitar. All of these slide around with the pitch. Except for harmonica, free reeds don’t do that. So... I tend to play notes with shorter durations and a quiet ending on my Anglo.
     
     
  • One more point. All the instruments in OT and BG take turns playing the melody. When they are not playing the tune they are comping. That is, accompanying with something complimentary. That means chords, harmony and rhythm. When I play with my bands I’m messing around with that stuff 80% of the time and staying out of the way of the melody instruments, until it’s my turn

So there are my ideas in a nutshell, comments?

 

Here are a few UTUBEs of Carters with PA. None of these sound like modern Bluegrass to me.

 

 

Sorry Old Blevins, I tried but was not successful in downloading your recordings. They downloaded as an .ini file. Nothing on my mac will play them.

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For reasons that are subtle, OT seems to me to be a more inclusive and fuzzy genre whereas Bluegrass has a more rigid format. The few times I’ve tried BG, I did not like the contribution I was making to the group, I thought I sounded out of place. Not to say it can’t be done Mark, but the natural inclinations of the bellows driven free reeds make them stand out instead of fit into the Bluegrass band. Fitting in is important if you want to be more than a novelty.

 

Sorry Old Blevins, I tried but was not successful in downloading your recordings. They downloaded as an .ini file. Nothing on my mac will play them.

 

Fitting in. Never been my strong suit. "Your milage may vary" is a phrase an old dobro player uses and I think it applies here (talk about an instrument that stands out). I've run into rusty, crusty old timers who can only except certain vocal styles. I'd never bring out my bluegrass banjo, although I'm at home in a number of non-Scruggs styles of playing and keep the volume down and damped up the neck (also helps that my medium gage set of strings strings are going on five years old). That is not to say that I've been shunned on every occation and I enjoy old timers and when the stars and moon are just right sit down and burn it up with them.

 

Bluegrass and the word ridgid has become an issue. Back in the 70's Ralph Stanley toured with the Red Clay Ramblers. They opened for him and he loved it. Not likely to happen these days. There are a lot of things in the USA that have become ridgid over the past few years :ph34r:. As one of those blue collar comics says, "you can't fix stupid." Good advice.

 

Bluegrass is a part of my cultural tradition and everywhere I have hung my hat, musicians of interest have enjoyed my company. Being a novelty is just up my alley. Neither fish or fowl, s'okay by me...in fact it's my goal. The time in my life when things didn't work well were all periods of thinking I needed to pass as a normal human being. Naw, I'll take being a wingnut any day. In fact having a goofy misft in the band is a long held tradition.

 

You are correct that none of the Carter recording are bluegrass. They never considered themselves as such. In their day it was all country music.

 

Old Blevins, I can't download you either....of course, I'm as dumb as a sack a hammers :P .

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Sorry Old Blevins, I tried but was not successful in downloading your recordings. They downloaded as an .ini file. Nothing on my mac will play them.

Old Blevins, I can't download you either....of course, I'm as dumb as a sack a hammers :P .

Worked OK for me. After unzip, it's in the area of the ini file. Look for another subdirectory/folder layer called "Squeezin' Out The Grass". It's another layer down.

 

By the way, didn't Pete Seegers sister play a concertina? I vaguely remember a long time ago reading something about that?

 

Most people drink from the fountain of knowledge, I only gargled. :lol:

 

Thanks

Leo

Edited by Leo
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