Can The Underfunded Play Cajun/irish Accordion?

[marin michelet]

Help me any Cajun & Irish players & Connoisseurs of Cheap:

Is there any cheap accordion that both Cajun & Celtic music can be played on? I've begun delving into this site but haven't hit this exact question yet. Am asking on Cajun boards too but haven't found one near as thorough or organized as this one & I know there are some Cajun players here. I putz around on the fiddle & bodhran a little so am slightly familiar with Irish/Scottish/English/bluegrass music. (I also play piano & guitar some so the thought of instruments that play only limited range of notes is kind of scary to me.)

1. If I only have about $200.00 US to start with, should I even think about playing Cajun and/or Irish accordion? (I will stoop to Chinese 16 bass piano box if i have to) or should I just forget it & take up carpentry or something?

2. Has anybody ever bought from Swampdog music? (ebay, Cajun accordion, no brand shown) Total waste or OK for cheap? Is a cheap Cajun accordion any worse than any other cheap accordion? Can Irish music be played on a Cajun accordion?

3. Can Cajun or Irish be played on a button box sold as Tex-Mex or general? How many bass buttons minimum? (I'm too small for a 120-button accordion, (which I already have, actually) I want one I can see over.)

4. I think I've read of people playing Cajun on concertina, is this done? If so, could I play Irish etc. on the same instrument or would 2 diff keys be needed? I think so far I've read that all teaching materials are in C for Cajun although D is considered better? (I tend to learn visually more than aurally.)

5. What's the main Irish instrument? (Sorry, I've always noticed the fiddles & drums more) Is it the button accordion, & if so, how many rows?

6. Is cheap new better than sight-unseen, sound-unheard used? Or should an un-accompanied beginner never buy used no matter how good & unleaky it seems?

7. Any good Cajun boards I might not have found yet?

 

Links or basic info much appreciated. I realize these are all highly debatable.

mm

[Paul Read]

Help me any Cajun & Irish players & Connoisseurs of Cheap:

Is there any cheap accordion that both Cajun & Celtic music can be played on? I've begun delving into this site but haven't hit this exact question yet. Am asking on Cajun boards too but haven't found one near as thorough or organized as this one & I know there are some Cajun players here. I putz around on the fiddle & bodhran a little so am slightly familiar with Irish/Scottish/English/bluegrass music. (I also play piano & guitar some so the thought of instruments that play only limited range of notes is kind of scary to me.)

1. If I only have about $200.00 US to start with, should I even think about playing Cajun and/or Irish accordion? (I will stoop to Chinese 16 bass piano box if i have to) or should I just forget it & take up carpentry or something?

2. Has anybody ever bought from Swampdog music? (ebay, Cajun accordion, no brand shown) Total waste or OK for cheap? Is a cheap Cajun accordion any worse than any other cheap accordion? Can Irish music be played on a Cajun accordion?

3. Can Cajun or Irish be played on a button box sold as Tex-Mex or general? How many bass buttons minimum? (I'm too small for a 120-button accordion, (which I already have, actually) I want one I can see over.)

4. I think I've read of people playing Cajun on concertina, is this done? If so, could I play Irish etc. on the same instrument or would 2 diff keys be needed? I think so far I've read that all teaching materials are in C for Cajun although D is considered better? (I tend to learn visually more than aurally.)

5. What's the main Irish instrument? (Sorry, I've always noticed the fiddles & drums more) Is it the button accordion, & if so, how many rows?

6. Is cheap new better than sight-unseen, sound-unheard used? Or should an un-accompanied beginner never buy used no matter how good & unleaky it seems?

7. Any good Cajun boards I might not have found yet?

 

Links or basic info much appreciated. I realize these are all highly debatable.

mm

 

 

Triangle?

[bill_mchale]

Help me any Cajun & Irish players & Connoisseurs of Cheap:

Is there any cheap accordion that both Cajun & Celtic music can be played on? I've begun delving into this site but haven't hit this exact question yet. Am asking on Cajun boards too but haven't found one near as thorough or organized as this one & I know there are some Cajun players here. I putz around on the fiddle & bodhran a little so am slightly familiar with Irish/Scottish/English/bluegrass music. (I also play piano & guitar some so the thought of instruments that play only limited range of notes is kind of scary to me.)

1. If I only have about $200.00 US to start with, should I even think about playing Cajun and/or Irish accordion? (I will stoop to Chinese 16 bass piano box if i have to) or should I just forget it & take up carpentry or something?

2. Has anybody ever bought from Swampdog music? (ebay, Cajun accordion, no brand shown) Total waste or OK for cheap? Is a cheap Cajun accordion any worse than any other cheap accordion? Can Irish music be played on a Cajun accordion?

3. Can Cajun or Irish be played on a button box sold as Tex-Mex or general? How many bass buttons minimum? (I'm too small for a 120-button accordion, (which I already have, actually) I want one I can see over.)

4. I think I've read of people playing Cajun on concertina, is this done? If so, could I play Irish etc. on the same instrument or would 2 diff keys be needed? I think so far I've read that all teaching materials are in C for Cajun although D is considered better? (I tend to learn visually more than aurally.)

5. What's the main Irish instrument? (Sorry, I've always noticed the fiddles & drums more) Is it the button accordion, & if so, how many rows?

6. Is cheap new better than sight-unseen, sound-unheard used? Or should an un-accompanied beginner never buy used no matter how good & unleaky it seems?

7. Any good Cajun boards I might not have found yet?

 

Links or basic info much appreciated. I realize these are all highly debatable.

 

I am not an expert on Cajun music by any means, but I will share what I know.

 

Well $200 is decidedly a thin budget for the accordion. Is it possible you could save for a few months and get something a bit nicer?

 

That being said, here are my thoughts on the issue. The classic Cajun accordion is a 10 button, 2 bass instrument in the key of C, the classic Irish Accordion is a 21-23 button, 8 bass instrument with half-step tuning (usually in C#/D or B/C). Now you can play Irish music on a 10 button box (usually called a melodeon in Ireland) but unfortunately it will usually be in the key of D (since most Irish music is in G and D). On the other hand, provided the Bass side is set up right, you should be able to play Cajun Music on an Irish 21 button box if it is in the keys of B/C. You probably wouldn't want to use that box if you were in a band, but it probably would work ok to get you started on the instrument.

 

In issue to your question about what the principle Irish Instrument... Its definitely the fiddle, with the flute (and whistle) as a close second. Button Accordions really were rather limited in Irish Music until after WWII and even then it was some years before they were generally accepted (early on they were limited mostly to Ceili bands that needed the volume that they could produce). The Drum is not a major Irish Instrument... and nothing will instill fear on a session player more than seeing people walk in with Bodhrans. There are some good Bodhran players and they can add alot to the music, but there are far to many people who merely think they can play...

 

Anyway, good luck. And let us know how it is going.

 

--

Bill

[marin michelet]

My budget won't go higher anytime soon, I think I'd rather have a $200.00 ebay job than nothing, just to tinker with. You can get a new "Cajun" (won't admit any brand name), "3-row button Tex-Mex" (Yingjie or so) or a ("Morelli") concertina for under 200.00. Are all worse than nothing? I won't inflict it on anyone but my family. I'm not going to barge into a session with it. It just drives me batty to hear music & not have a clue how it's played.

[JimLucas]

My budget won't go higher anytime soon, I think I'd rather have a $200.00 ebay job than nothing, just to tinker with. ... It just drives me batty to hear music & not have a clue how it's played.

If you build yourself a cigar-box fiddle, you may get some sound out of it, but it's not likely to teach you how good Irish or Cajun fiddlers get their particular sounds out of their fiddles.

 

I'm not an accordion expert, but from what I've heard, a really cheap eBay accordion may be of about the same quality as the cigar-box fiddle. So if you get one and it leaves you frustrated, don't give up. The problem might be the particular instrument, not accordions in general.

 

Also, you might get better advice -- or at least more of it -- by asking folks in an accordion forum. Concertinas are about as different from accordions as motorcycles from 4-wheeled cars, and come in types as different from each other as compacts and SUV's. Some of us here -- Bill is one -- do play both concertina and accordion, so maybe they could point you to a more helpful forum.

 

I'm not trying to get rid of you. You're welcome to hang out here if you find it interesting. But if it's accordions your interested in, then I expect you'll find more help with that interest in a forum dedicated to it.

[m3838]

For starter, don't mess with Ebay. If your budget is so small, how come you are willing to risk it be thrown away? Contact some dealer: The Button Box, Kimric Smythe Accordions or others. They probably sell Chiness Ariettas for some $300+ and they go over them, tune and set the reeds to make sure they're playable.

I agree, that if you want one instrument to fit into generally accepted boundaries for both, Irish and Cajun, a B/C is the best way to go. It is possible to find a good B/C Hohner Pokerwork on Ebay, but with a bit of luck.

I'll send you personal message with tips of shopping accordions on Ebay.

Concertinas are out of question, they are a luxury items.

3 row "Tex-mex" is very good for many styles of music, very versatile instruments, but make sure you're not buying it without the bass reeds, as they sometimes sold to keep the price down. (Mexicans don't use the basses for some misterious reason, could be because Narciso Martinez, the Tex-Mex God, couldn't use them on his two row).

[marin michelet]

Thanks everybody, very useful. I'm having a much better day on the Cajun board, finding lots of beginner stuff. They're pretty used to people like me starting out with nothing and downshift well. Had no clue how complex the world of squeezing really is. Will certainly pay better attention to that side of the stage at Irish Fest next year.

[Jeff H]

First let's give some definitions

 

CAJUN Accordion.. Any accordion made by a Cajun.. however the classic Cajun Accordion is based on the old Sterlings and Monarchs. Usualy:

Single row key of C

4 stops

2 bass

JUST tuned (cajun tuned) as a oppesed to a tempered tuning

Simply put the new definition of a Cajun accordion is

A one row diatonic accordion made by a Cajun ususally in the Key of C.. some in D some in Bb rarley in A or G

 

DONT throw away $200 bucks on e bay ior anywhere else for a CAJUN accordion.. that is money down a rat hole

 

MAS ( minimum acceptable standard) would be a Hohner Ariette.. used to be crap not so bad now with a little fussing about

Next a Hohner model 114 or 114 b ( b for black) and supposedly CAJUN tuned.. but simply not the typical wet Hohner (17 cents) tuning.

Lots of good music was and is still played on a Hohner..

 

Next would be the Weltmeisters, Regals, Galottas.. all made in Kingenthal and not so bad.

 

My recommendation is a Used Hohner in C for around $400.. play it as is.. then decide if you wnat to step up

 

Irish Accordion.. as mentioned B/C C#/D and the variants..

 

But here again lots of great music has been made on single row instruments including Hohners..

For examlples Johhny Connolly (sp) whose cd's can be found at the Button Box web site

 

Irish usually play single row D but C is the second Choice and Connolly plays lots of tunes in C.

 

Tex Mex.. the original guys played Tex Mex on Hohner Pokerworks.. 2 rows in G and C...

the lazy and less talented ( : ) ) now play 3 rows... Santiago Jimenez ( who IMNSHO blows Flaco away) still plays the 2 row....

 

As for Irish on a 2 row GC or other box tuned in 5ths... you can play Irish tunes but not the Irish way

 

However... a Box tuned in A/D can offer some of the shar[ps and flats for ornamentation

and D/G the typical English box configured in the 1950's can play Irish

Again not the Irish way but listen to Tim Eady on his self titled CD available from the Music Room in England.. an absolute mind blowing effort....lots of Irish tunes and some American stuff as well...

 

 

Cajun on a concertina, HArry Scurfield.

 

 

Cajun accordion discussion groups

 

2 of them on bravenet.... one is ok the other I avoid like the plague..reasons withheld...

 

 

also try melodeon.net there is a forum there... all styles.. lots of Brits and Yanks...

 

 

3 Row G/C/F is a very versatile accordion... if there is such a thing as the universal box.. that has to be it...

MAS is a Hohner Panther then a Hohner Corona II ( get one used made in Germany not China)

 

Good for Euro, Tex Mex Quebec.. Cowboy,

 

Try the Reyes Accordion discussion group for Tex Mex stuff... ethnocentric but that's what its for

 

 

go to Google Groops and see

 

rec.music.makers.squeezebox

 

 

Good Luck

[marin michelet]

The classic Cajun accordion is a 10 button, 2 bass instrument in the key of C, the classic Irish Accordion is a 21-23 button, 8 bass instrument with half-step tuning (usually in C#/D or B/C). Now you can play Irish music on a 10 button box (usually called a melodeon in Ireland) but unfortunately it will usually be in the key of D (since most Irish music is in G and D). On the other hand, provided the Bass side is set up right, you should be able to play Cajun Music on an Irish 21 button box if it is in the keys of B/C. You probably wouldn't want to use that box if you were in a band, but it probably would work ok to get you started on the instrument.

 

In issue to your question about what the principle Irish Instrument...

 

Sounds like what I need to know, thanks. Is it expensive to get the Bass side set up right?

 

Oops, I meant what is the principal Irish accordion. Which you answered, thanks again.

[jon melville]

Most Cajun 'box is played on a one-row in C. Other keys may be used by certain artists to prevent others easily joining in or to give a slightly different feel, but 95% can be played on a one-row in C, playing in G like a blues harmonica. None of the players I've ever seen uses the basses, except in a cursory fashion occasionally or for effect.

 

Most Cajun 'boxes are four-stop one-rows. The four reeds are generally tuned with two on the note, one an octave down and one an octave above, all very dry (i.e. close to exact pitch, with very little tremolo). You could play Cajun tunes on any meodeon with a row in C, but it won't have that Cajun sound unless you have lots of dry-tuned reeds going. Most Tex-Mex instruments have fewer reeds and much more tremolo (where the two reeds tuned to the same note are a few cents out, creating a warbling, wider pitch - used a lot in Scottish and French accordion music).

 

Most Irish tunes are in D or G and related minors; the Irish 'box tends to be a two-row in either C/C# or B/C, so the white piano notes are on one row and the accidentals on the other. This set-up makes for fast, smooth playing. You can certainly play Irish tunes on a D/G melodeon, but the smoothness and speed will be lacking. Again, very few players, from locals in pubs up to Sharon Shannon and co., use the basses, although some C/C# boxes can have the basses retuned to D/G, you cannot play standard bass lines since the chord notes are split between push and draw.

 

Most Irish boxes are two reeds per note, some have a lot more tremolo, personally I prefer a drier tuning and many of the younger players seem to as well.

 

So, if you got a C/C# melodeon, you can play Irish stuff fine and will have the range of notes and buttons you need for Cajun, but it won't have that sound. Some of the Zydeco stuff is played on similar instruments.

 

I have a piano accordion with four voices, quite dry tuned. Sounds fine for Irish - the smoothness at speed is easier to manage on a piano keyboard, although you have to work the bellows to get the sort of rhythmic drive the melodeon automatically delivers. It also sounds good for Cajun, although here you have to play very staccato and some of the chordal stuff with extra drones in the bass octave requires a hell of a stretch. You also need to work out which notes are available on each bellows direction so you don't add in impossible chord tones - it is really noticeable.

 

If you already have an accordion, maybe it's best not to spend any extra money at all or to start at the bottom of another learning curve, but play what you want to on what you already have. If the 120bass is too big (I find they get smaller the longer you play them, if you see what I mean, but there's not a lot of me and I struggle with big boxes, too) why not trade it for a 72 bass three- or four-voice which will be lighter, smaller and still have the range you need and extra versatility to go outside the styles we are talking about. Look for dry tunings, Italian boxes tend to be better than German or E.European, avoid anything from the Far East, you should be OK.

 

Hope this helps.

[Ken_Coles]

Much good advice so far. One comment: In my neck of the woods (Pittsburgh, which has two professional Cajun bands, and Tracy Schwartz comes up here to play a lot also) and on my visits to Louisiana most Cajun acc. players make heavy use of the basses in first position (C on a C box) and second position (G on a C box). That accounts for most of the songs and tunes they do. The late Eddie LeJeune (God be good to him) emphasized using bass buttons right from the start in a beginner's workshop I took with him (I had a black Hohner 114b then). The psychology of being told I could do it worked; I came back the next day and played Lovebridge Waltz (one of his father's signature songs) for him with the basses going all the way through! It was a milestone for me as a musician.

 

The idea of just getting a piano accordion instead of a diatonic instrument is an intriguing one. In the U.S. they are out of favor and some determined digging can find you a very good one in your price range (beware the unrestored/worn out however). There are accomplished (if not always conventional) players of many of the genres mentioned so far on PA.

 

Good luck.

[bill_mchale]

Most Cajun 'box is played on a one-row in C. Other keys may be used by certain artists to prevent others easily joining in or to give a slightly different feel, but 95% can be played on a one-row in C, playing in G like a blues harmonica. None of the players I've ever seen uses the basses, except in a cursory fashion occasionally or for effect.

 

That is weird, my admittedly limited experience to Cajun music has been exactly the opposite. Very heavy use of the Bass and Chords. It all seemed to me that they drove the rhytem of Cajun Music.

 

Most Irish tunes are in D or G and related minors; the Irish 'box tends to be a two-row in either C/C# or B/C, so the white piano notes are on one row and the accidentals on the other. This set-up makes for fast, smooth playing. You can certainly play Irish tunes on a D/G melodeon, but the smoothness and speed will be lacking. Again, very few players, from locals in pubs up to Sharon Shannon and co., use the basses, although some C/C# boxes can have the basses retuned to D/G, you cannot play standard bass lines since the chord notes are split between push and draw.

 

I am not sure how much I agree with that. I will agree that many Irish box players don't use basses, but many do. Billy McComiskey (and his son Sean), Joe Burke, John Nolan, Jackie Daley, John Williams and Joe Derrane all use the left hand.

 

Most Irish boxes are two reeds per note, some have a lot more tremolo, personally I prefer a drier tuning and many of the younger players seem to as well.

 

Umm, well, alot Irish boxes uses two reeds per note, but 3 and 4 is probably more common. The Grey Paolos that still enjoy a quasi mythical status amongst Irish Box players are all 3 and 4 voice instruments. Alot of starter boxes (Hohner Black Dot and the Billy McComiskey Learner) do have 2 voices, but alot of people switch to the 3 and 4 voice instruments when they move up.

 

--

Bill

[bill_mchale]

Also, you might get better advice -- or at least more of it -- by asking folks in an accordion forum. Concertinas are about as different from accordions as motorcycles from 4-wheeled cars, and come in types as different from each other as compacts and SUV's. Some of us here -- Bill is one -- do play both concertina and accordion, so maybe they could point you to a more helpful forum.

 

Thanks Jim . I am not sure I would go so far as to say concertinas and accordions are as different as cars and motocycles... maybe cars and SUVs . The weird thing about accordions and concertinas is that it is probably easier to go from certain types of concertinas to accordions and the converse than it is to go between different types of either instrument. Playing a Diatonic Button Accordion and an Anglo Concertina have alot in common for example.

 

The only forum I know of is two sitting on the Yahoo groups. Irish Box is probably the best one though I don't frequent it too much these days. Certainly, unfortunately, there is nothing like concertina.net. Probably because the concertina community is so much smaller.

 

--

Bill

[bill_mchale]

 

The classic Cajun accordion is a 10 button, 2 bass instrument in the key of C, the classic Irish Accordion is a 21-23 button, 8 bass instrument with half-step tuning (usually in C#/D or B/C). Now you can play Irish music on a 10 button box (usually called a melodeon in Ireland) but unfortunately it will usually be in the key of D (since most Irish music is in G and D). On the other hand, provided the Bass side is set up right, you should be able to play Cajun Music on an Irish 21 button box if it is in the keys of B/C. You probably wouldn't want to use that box if you were in a band, but it probably would work ok to get you started on the instrument.

 

In issue to your question about what the principle Irish Instrument...

 

Sounds like what I need to know, thanks. Is it expensive to get the Bass side set up right?

 

Oops, I meant what is the principal Irish accordion. Which you answered, thanks again.

 

Well provided you ever poke your head back onto this forum . I just checked into it and it looks like the Bass of a Cajun accordion is C/G. An identical pair will be on most B/C accordions, particularly any that are set up with a McComiskey or Paolo Soprani set up.

 

--

Bill

[Jeff H]

In my experience, virtually every Cajun accordion player uses tghe basses.. it is elemental to the music.

 

Cajuns are a very social and gregarious lot... unlike some musical genre, they don't exlude but go out of their way to include others. It would be highly unusual for a Cajun to play in other keys to keep folks out.

 

Key of C first.. then Bb and D then a few play F and G boxes but rare.

 

 

Zydeco is usually played on a 3 row...most having F,Bb,Eb though GCF is used

On single row Bb and of course C.. other keys on occasion

Lots of Piano Accordions and CBA. can be found.

 

 

Jeff

[KikiDb]

The Hohner Ariette button accordion is used for that Cajun sound and I've heard it's quite nice, a good beginner's instrument; it's a little over $200.

 

Just thought: nice melodicas can be had for less than $100 and the sound is in the same sound family (well, maybe a kissin' cousin of the accordian/concertina clan; yes, it plays chords and melodies simultaneously.

[Guest Old Leaky]

A single row in C will be good for Cajun but next to useless for Irish if you intend playing with others in a session. A D box will be good for both, but with limitations for other normal Irish keys of G and A etc. Eddie LeJeune seems to have recorded entire albums using just one system e.g. D on "Cajun Soul", C on "It's In The Blood". Both albums (and his others) are well worth checking out. Bear in mind that Cajun boxes are not equal tempered, to enable them to sound right when playing chords. like 2nd position in blues harp. While the intervals won't be correct for straight melody playing this can be overcome to a certain extent by switching off one or 2 reed sets - which you'll need to do to lose the characteristic Cajun sound anyway.

[stevejay]

3 row "Tex-mex" is very good for many styles of music, very versatile instruments, but make sure you're not buying it without the bass reeds, as they sometimes sold to keep the price down. (Mexicans don't use the basses for some misterious reason, could be because Narciso Martinez, the Tex-Mex God, couldn't use them on his two row).

 

Hi

 

No Narcisco could use the bass buttons, but they interfered with the bass player and guitarist. Jazz piano players will often omit the bass as well to open up their own particular pallettes. You can trust that Narcisco realized the limitations of those primitive basses on a pokerwork