JimLucas Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Hows the view from the peninsula and islands that are Denmark, Jim? Predawn salmon glow over Sweden. Breeze from the southeast, much reduced from the heavy blow of the last couple of days. Waves on the sound rough, but not choppy. A few wispy clouds in an otherwise clear sky. Temperature about 7.5 C, expected to reach 10 C today. That's here on the northeastern corner of the big island. The Danish Meteorological Institute's weather map indicates clouds to the west and north, including the northern part of the peninsula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 D'oh, how could I have forgot East Clare on Concertina.net; it really is the home to Irish Concertina Music ... Er? Sorry Bill, but its WEST Clare - the number of concertina players got less as you moved East. Mary Mc is East Clare, but think of the older players and you'll find that most were from the west -Tommy McCarthy, Gerdy Commane, Paddy Murphy, Bernard O'Sullivan, Tommy McMahon, Stack Ryan, Packie Russell, Lizzy Crotty, Kitty Hayes, etc, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_mchale Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 D'oh, how could I have forgot East Clare on Concertina.net; it really is the home to Irish Concertina Music ... Er? Sorry Bill, but its WEST Clare - the number of concertina players got less as you moved East. Mary Mc is East Clare, but think of the older players and you'll find that most were from the west -Tommy McCarthy, Gerdy Commane, Paddy Murphy, Bernard O'Sullivan, Tommy McMahon, Stack Ryan, Packie Russell, Lizzy Crotty, Kitty Hayes, etc, etc... Wes, Why should you be sorry? I am the one who made the mistake . Actually its Chris's fault, he said East Clare first . -- Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Actually its Chris's fault, he said East Clare first . So that's it! Try to blame the English for everything - and then even someone who wrote to say that he'd only discovered real Irish music a few days ago ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henk van Aalten Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Actually its Chris's fault, he said East Clare first . Anyway.... there is a difference in speed between East and West. Mary McNamara is a nice example of the lower speed allowing much more expression. As far as I know Chris, he was not in favor of the "fast" type of Irish music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted October 14, 2004 Author Share Posted October 14, 2004 As far as I know Chris, he was not in favor of the "fast" type of Irish music Yup, in a word! Bill, I'd be interested in your response to my earlier point about the desirability of experiencing new traditions. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_mchale Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Actually its Chris's fault, he said East Clare first . So that's it! Try to blame the English for everything - and then even someone who wrote to say that he'd only discovered real Irish music a few days ago ... Well I only blame the English for what they actually did... its not my fault that they have done an awful lot wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_mchale Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Bill, I'd be interested in your response to my earlier point about the desirability of experiencing new traditions. Chris, Sorry it took me so long to respond to the thought.. but I was thinking about it and still am. Essentially I don't see anything wrong with sampling other traditions, but one should be careful to keep the traditions distinct (IMHO), at least when they are identifiably distinctly different traditions. Its not that a mixed style would necessarily be bad, in fact it might be brilliant but it would also not really be traditional anymore either. To a certain extent I think resistence to change in traditions is good, it keeps them distinct as traditions. Change will occur in the traditions whether we like it or not, there is no need to rush it along. Little would be served if blue grass was played like Irish and Irish like Danish music. On the other hand tunes can be liberally swiped between traditions and rearranged and reset to fit within a new tradition . -- Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff H Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Belize gained independence in 1981......... jjh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 Essentially I don't see anything wrong with sampling other traditions, but one should be careful to keep the traditions distinct (IMHO), at least when they are identifiably distinctly different traditions. Of course I agree with that; in fact, again I have to apologise if you took that meaning from what I said. Blending traditions is simply a concept that wouldn't occur to me. What would you achieve by doing so, except the loss of that distinctive character that I prize so much? No, what I had in mind was your statement:- When I master my first thousand Irish Tunes I might start thinking about branching off into other Genres, but right now I am busy enough Which I had to say seemed to me somewhat limiting; you are losing a lot, I believe, by taking that line. Some years back I had a very useful exchange with Steve Litwin (the polka editor of the Polish American Journal) because although I have known about the Chemnitzer concertina for many years I had no feel for the music played on it. Steve and I exchanged recordings of sessions of Chemnitzer and English music, and both of us greatly enjoyed the musics and the subsequent discussion of the similarities and differences we could see. Now I have no interest in playing English music in a Polish American style on my anglo (though I might someday try playing a couple of Polish American polkas) but the whole experience was enriching and definitely expanded my musical horizons. It is in this spirit that I strongly urge you to listen to non-Irish music from time to time. I have a CD I made some time back of a particularly good English music session I was part of at Chippenham Folk Festival a few years back. It gives a good feel for the character of a good English music session. I've sent it to a few people on this list at various times. Contact me direct if you'd like a copy. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Its not that a mixed style would necessarily be bad, in fact it might be brilliant but it would also not really be traditional anymore either. So contemporary "Irish traditional music" with bouzouki (a Greek instrument, recently adopted), banjo (an African-American instrument, adopted somewhat earlier), or violin (an Italian instrument, adopted even eariler) isn't really traditional? Of course it is! I know that's not what you meant, Bill, but it shows where your argument leads if taken too far. Somewhere, you have to draw a limiting line, since everything in the tradition -- every song, every fragment of every tune, every instrument, every stylistic element -- was once "new". You seem to be drawing that line at now (or a little before now?), suggesting that anything added before you became involved with the music is "traditional", while anything people try to add later is not. But traditions dochange, and still remain traditions. And even things once considered radical and threatening (I remember my parents' reaction to Elvis Presley) either die out or become comfortably "traditional". Change will occur in the traditions whether we like it or not, there is no need to rush it along. On balance, I would also say that there's no need to dogmatically resist it. I would even go so far as to say that dogmatic resistance is bad, stifling not only creativity, but tradition itself. If someone tries to introduce something new, some people -- you among them? -- will almost certainly resist, some others may embrace it, and some will just sit back and wait for the dust to settle. Then there are four possible results: .. 1) The innovation will become accepted and integrated within the tradition, altering it irrevocably. .. 2) The innovation will become accepted and integrated within the tradition, but as a small sub-genre. .. 3) The innovation will fall away for lack of support. .. 4) The innovation will spawn a new tradition, derivative but independent. The old tradition may either (4a) die out or (4b) continue a parallel existence. I would say that The Beatles' use of sitar in rock music is an example of case 3. But probably most instances of case 3 are things neither of us has ever heard of. I think an interesting example of case 2 is the introduction of the soprano saxophone into traditional Swedish music. A few years ago I knew of one person using soprano sax for Swedish fiddle tunes. Now I know two, and I suspect there may be others, though not many. The important thing is that they are respected and welcomed in the tradition. There isn't (yet?) a mass movement to the instrument, but the traditional fiddlers love it when these guys join them for a parking lot jam, and they're also in great demand as both stage performers and dance musicians. There are many examples of case 1 in Irish music. Past examples would include the incorporation of the violin and banjo -- noted above -- but also the flute, the uilleann pipes (about as different from the old pipes as a car from a wagon), and -- of course -- the accordion and concertina. More recent examples would be the adoption of the bouzouki, use of chords other than simple triads and 7ths, and the low D whistle. A major example of case 4a is the polska, the dominant traditional dance form in Sweden. The name means "Polish" -- in both Swedish and Polish -- and in its various forms it derives from Polish dances that became widely popular throughout Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries. (Irish "mazurkas", by the way, make great hambo tunes. The hambo is a form of polska, and "mazurka" means dance from Mazur, the lake district of northeastern Poland.) Not only the dance, but several of the polska tunes extant in Sweden today can be traced back to Polish originals. Variants of the polska are also danced in other Scandinavian countries. One of them, the sønderhoning (named for the town of Sønderho, on the small island of Fanø in Denmark) retains the dance form, but not the tunes. A few of the traditional sønderhoning tunes are, in fact, variants of Playford (17th-century English) dance tunes. There's another traditional Swedish dance known as the engelska, a word that means "English", and the dance resembles certain English reels. Other common dance forms in Sweden -- and in fact, throughout the western world -- are the waltz, polka, and schottische... all foreign "intrusions". But today, they are not only "traditional", there don't seem to be any surviving Swedish dances from pre-polska local traditions. Is this bad? Few Swedes would think so. It's not a matter of principle, just history. Examples of 4b would be jazz evolving from earlier traditions, and the hybrid known as "folk rock". I think the dust has yet to settle regarding the introduction of non-"simple" Balkan rhythms into Irish music by the likes of Kevin Burke and Andy Irvine. Might become a 3, or maybe a small parallel 4. At least one of these tunes has become popular among some local "Irish" players. I said there were four possible results, but it now occurs to me that I've seen a fifth. The early Chieftains (recordings 1-4) combined Irish traditional music with chamber music-lilke arrangements. (After that they developed a more orchestral style that I don't like nearly as much.) Their playing had a major impact on both Irish traditional music and its popularity, yet you find little of that sort of arrangement today even in the groups that got their start listening to The Chieftains. So I think their innovations significantly influenced the tradition without becoming a significant part of it. Little would be served if blue grass was played like Irish and Irish like Danish music. I wonder how you can be so sure. I know that Cape Breton fiddler Jerry Holland and the musicians from Fanø (the Danish island I mentioned above) really enjoy playing each others' music. How much of an impact that will have on either tradition is yet to be seen, but I don't see any of them trying to enforce a rigid separation. On the other hand tunes can be liberally swiped between traditions and rearranged and reset to fit within a new tradition . Some can; some can't. I've heard tunes I know to be American played as traditional Danish or Norwegian dance tunes, and I haven't found anyone who can say which came first. But there's a whole body of Swedish tunes that would require major surgery -- on either the tune or the adopting tradition -- to "fit" into either bluegrass or Irish. But that doesn't mean it can't/won't happen. E.g., there's the group SWÅP. Personally, I think innovation and change are great. They shouldn't be forced, but neither should they be forced out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Essentially I don't see anything wrong with sampling other traditions, but one should be careful to keep the traditions distinct (IMHO), at least when they are identifiably distinctly different traditions.Of course I agree with that; in fact, again I have to apologise if you took that meaning from what I said. Blending traditions is simply a concept that wouldn't occur to me. What would you achieve by doing so, except the loss of that distinctive character that I prize so much? Chris, like it or not, I think you're kidding yourself. You might not think to blend traditions, but I'll bet it's happening around you. Are you sure that nobody's been sneaking French-style harmonies into English tunes, or vice-versa. Would you object to a hurdy gurdy at an English sesson? (The bombarde is another story. ) And while some of the best English fiddlers may be able to precisely imitate the playing styles of traditional Swedish or French (or Irish) fiddlers without infecting their English style, I think most fiddlers would be unable to avoid a certain amount of unconscious "creep". No. Regional styles (English-Swedish vs. Dutch-Swedish vs. Swedish-Swedish?) will develop and evolve over time, just as I've observed "regional" differences among the various Irish sessions I've visited in the US. One can try to minimize it, but it can't be prevented. (I have my own prejudice against certain changes I've observed -- why do people play hornpipes so fast?, -- and I resist them, but I'm not doctrinaire about it.) But it will take a while; best to sit back and enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Would you object to a hurdy gurdy at an English sesson? (The bombarde is another story. ) Hey! I bought a bombarde only last weekend. Wiltshire, here I come.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 Chris, like it or not, I think you're kidding yourself. You might not think to blend traditions, but I'll bet it's happening around you. Are you sure that nobody's been sneaking French-style harmonies into English tunes, or vice-versa. Would you object to a hurdy gurdy at an English sesson? Oh good grief, I must have forgotten how to write English, since seemingly nobody understands what I am trying to say any more! For the avoidance of confusion, I do not disagree with anything you say, Jim. But I think you are taking what I said way too far, and your response is unnecessary. Of course one is influenced by what one hears. Of course traditions influence each other. But what I was trying to talk about, and what I am really interested in is Bill's apparent avoidance of other traditions, which concerns me. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 Wiltshire, here I come.... I'm afraid bombardes are outlawed in Wiltshire, Wes. Something about upsetting the Army on Salisbury Plain... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henk van Aalten Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Oh good grief, I must have forgotten how to write English, since seemingly nobody understands what I am trying to say any more! Chris, I still have the idea that I understand you, but maybe it's an illusion ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 ...I must have forgotten how to write English,... Not necessarily. Is it everybody who misunderstands you, or just us foreigners? ...what I was trying to talk about, and what I am really interested in is Bill's apparent avoidance of other traditions, which concerns me. Sorry for misunderstanding, Chris. But I will say that it doesn't bother me. It's a personal choice or point of view, a difference of priorities. It's one of many ways in which he and I differ, and that's fine. He's not trying to force me to adopt his ways, and I'm not trying to force him to adopt mine. I may think he's missing out on some great experiences, but then he might not find them as enjoyable as I do. Fine session last night in Helsingborg, though. Mostly Irish, but a ocuple of really nice sets of traditional Swedish tunes. As for cross-culture, there was an American girl there, who grew up mostly in Germany, is now living in Sweden with her Scottish boyfriend, and loves Irish music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 Is it everybody who misunderstands you, or just us foreigners? Apparently Henk understands me, but then I am 1/8 Dutch, so maybe that helps... Cheers, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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