inventor Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 To Don regarding design for a 46 button Hayden Duet. The 46 button Wheatstone Hayden Duet is the standard 6.25". It of course uses traditional concertina reeds set radially, with 21 buttons on the left and 25 on the right. The Crabb 45 button Salvation Army Crane duet is only 6" across. The traditional concertina reeds are set up and down as is common on Crabb concertinas. Left hand side - 20 buttons, 8 up, 8 down, and 4 in the middle; but there is enough space to put an extra pair of reeds on the right hand side of the left hand reedpan. Right hand side - 25 buttons, 9 up, 9 down, 5 in the middle, and 2 sideways (one at each end of the reedpan). I tried one of these which had been very much used and did not notice any difference in the timbre of the edge and centre pan notes. I have had concertinas from new which have some reeds on the centre of the reed pan. The difference in timbre was quite noticeable when brand new, but this has settled down to be unnoticeable after a good time of playing. These concertinas all had the centre reeds properly routed into the centre of the reed pan, not screwed in. With rectangular accordion reedplates all screwed onto the equivalent of a reedpan, I cannot see why there should be any difference in timbre at all. Concertina Makers do not usually publish concertina designs. It takes a lot of time to design a new type of concertina, and the makers consider that the design is their copyright. Now let us consider how many buttons we might be able to get into a small size concertina. Accordion reedplates are a pretty standard 16mm across and lengths according to the pitch - see Harmonikas CZ charts. Some years ago I designed one using the well established spacing for a 6.25" concertina. 8 X 16mm (128mm): plus 2mm between the plates (to allow them to be waxed in), and 2mm at each side (18mm): plus two 6mm bellows frame sides (12mm); gives 158mm: which is 6.25" as near as makes no difference. I designed one such Hayden Duet but was only able to get 23 reedplates in the right hand side, but the loss of the highest c#"' & d"' was I felt no great loss. However if you went wall to wall with screwed on reedplates, it might be possible to get 9 reedplates across on a 6.25" concertina. With the slightly larger 6 5/8" size bellows, 9 reedplates across should be no problem; and that should easily take all 46 buttons of the common small Hayden Duet Well best of luck with your venture, I eagerly await to see the result. Inventor. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Łukasz Martynowicz Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 @Don: for 62 "standard double" DIX reeds in brass (with valves) I've paid around 300 euros. I think that the price for two "concerina" reeds would be slightly larger than for a single "standard" but probably you'll end up somewhere around the same sum. Harmonikas.cz won't give you any estimated price untill you send them the complete list of notes needed, as price per reed vary with size... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Lukasz Thanks, that would be a bit too much money (for me anyway) to justify to order a set just to play with and to figure out if I can make them fit. Inventor Thanks for this. I have a CC Peacock which is 42 buttons in a 7" box. The accordion reeds fill the reed pans with no room for an additional note or two. The reeds are all screwed down flat to the pan (no reed blocks) and there are reeds in the centre. There is some space between the reed frames, but only just a lot of small fragments of space that I think would be difficult to consolidate into a chunk of space big enough for even one more note. I am pretty sure that Wim considered this when designing the Peacock. Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inventor Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 I can't imagine why the 7" Peacock has so few reeds. I designed the Russian made Hayden Duet that Samantha has. It is a 7" Concertina with no less than 65 buttons ! The reeds were all laid out flat parallel to the ends. I will look out my old designs to see how I did this and how a 44 button Hayden fitted into the 6.25" size. Inventor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Inventor This is a photo that I took a few months ago of one of the reed pans of my Peacock. There looks to be a big space in the centre that could house 1 or 2 more reed frames. However, if I recall correctly, you can't put any reeds there because of the action mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inventor Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Are there only 19 reedplates on the other side ?. Inventor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inventor Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Just found the answer to my question on the "interior of a cc concertina connection Peacock" thread. I can see how it would be possible to add an extra 2 to the RHS. But need to see a picture of the LHS action for the extra 2 on the left. Inventor.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Inventor Peacock LHS action board: Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Hansen Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 @Don: for 62 "standard double" DIX reeds in brass (with valves) I've paid around 300 euros. I think that the price for two "concerina" reeds would be slightly larger than for a single "standard" but probably you'll end up somewhere around the same sum. Harmonikas.cz won't give you any estimated price untill you send them the complete list of notes needed, as price per reed vary with size... Price for 62 reeds for a C/G anglo was around 170 euros including tax earlier this year. The reeds I got are both tapered (from rivet-end towards tip) and the sides have a beveled angle to clip into the slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 The reeds I got are both tapered (from rivet-end towards tip) and the sides have a beveled angle to clip into the slot. This sounds more sophisticated than the reed frames I saw two years ago. Lars, do they still have a vertical sided imternal slot? Maybe the clearances are better too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 @Don: for 62 "standard double" DIX reeds in brass (with valves) I've paid around 300 euros. I think that the price for two "concerina" reeds would be slightly larger than for a single "standard" but probably you'll end up somewhere around the same sum. Harmonikas.cz won't give you any estimated price untill you send them the complete list of notes needed, as price per reed vary with size... Price for 62 reeds for a C/G anglo was around 170 euros including tax earlier this year. The reeds I got are both tapered (from rivet-end towards tip) and the sides have a beveled angle to clip into the slot. Any chance you could post a few pictures? Thx. Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inventor Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Thank-you for the picture of the left hand action. I think it would not be too difficult with a little realignment of the centre reedplates, to put the extra 2 reedplates on each side of a Peacock like instrument. Reducing it from 7" to 6 5/8" might be difficult but not impossible. As described above both Wheatstone and Crabb managed to get 46/45 buttons on the even smaller sized instruments. How the sizes of the DIX "concertina" reeds compare with the equivalent-pitch traditional concertina reeds is open to question. Inventor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Inventor A 46 button Peacock would be quite compelling. I am happy with my 42 button, but would really like to have the missing notes. Any chance you could try to persuade Wim of your ideas? I would spring for an upgrade if Wim offered one, either to rebuild my current box or trade against a new one with 46 buttons. Thx. Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Hansen Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Lars Thanks for the pics. Do you have a picture of the underside? Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Hansen Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Middleton-Metcalfe Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 oh nice, the rivet is flush on the bottom. Great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 It is hard to tell from the last picture, but it looks like the internal walls of the frames are vertical. Lars: How far long are you with your build? What is your impression of these reeds? Thx. Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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