Rosewood Vs. Ebony

[Rhomylly]

As a continuation of some comments made in another topic, I thought I'd toss this question to the general forum.

 

What are the pros and cons of rosewood vs. ebony concertina ends? Is is pure aesthetics? Is there a weight difference? How about sound, is that affected (assuming reeds are similar or identical) and how? What other differences, if any, are there?

 

Now that I've figured out just what the heck rosewood is, and can stop scratching my head at my scraggly little rosebush in my yard I'm interested in a lively comparison of the two woods.

 

On pure aesthetics alone, I prefer ebony. Which is why all the photos I've seen of Normans make me drool...

 

Rhomylly

[Chris Timson]

I stand to be corrected here, but I believe the majority of wooden-ended concertinas to be veneered. Thus the visible wood makes mostly a cosmetic difference only because there ain't very much of it.

 

This is still the case today, having been in Colin Dipper's workshop and seen the sheets of amboyna, cocobolo and, yes, rosewood veneer he works with. There are, however, exceptions. When he made my baritone anglo I'd asked for a rich, full, reasonant sound. One of the ways he achieved this was by making the ends of solid Spanish mahogany (recycled from a 19th century British Museum display cabinet) instead of veneer.

 

Chris

[grumpyhermit]

Ebony is a lovely black color, and the black/dark concertinas are often made of this, I guess. Ebony has a propensity to crack, or "check" as it is known in the woodworking industry. A really well-figured piece of Amazon Rosewood is a thing of beauty. I love figured wood anyway; the plain black of Ebony or African Blackwood are a trifle austere for my tastes. Rosewood is very dense and tough, and is probably a better wood for durability than Ebony. Aesthetics, price and durability should be your guide as to what you choose.

 

Bob

[Robin Harrison]

Somebody will know more about this than I,but should the typical black ended Wheatstone be called EBONIZED,not ebony-ended.It a type of French polish finish ,not a veneer ?

Robin

[JimLucas]

I think the "ebony" on most concertina ends is actually dyed. I've been told that it's often dyed pear wood. The natural ebony I've seen, by the way, has been streaked with lighter colors. I think it's rare to get a large enough piece of solid black to do a full concertina end, so even if the end is real ebony, it may be dyed.

 

Rosewood varies a lot (aside from there being various woods that are known as rosewood, at least today), with more or less figuring. Also, many other woods were dyed to imitate rosewood.

 

I do believe that are characteristic differences in sound among the different woods, even though they're only veneer, but they are very subtle. Amboyna and tortoise-shell (not a wood, but hey) have, in my estimation, particularly notable tone qualities, though. But there are many other factors affecting the tone, as well.

 

My guess is that if you prefer the look of ebony, you'll probably be able to find an "ebony"-ended instrument to your liking... at least once you can afford a good one.

 

But you should try some other instruments, as well. E.g., you might find you like the sound of a metal-ended concertina. If you still prefer the black look, you could always paint it black, or maybe have it anodized black. I have a duet which is metal ended, but where the woodwok is actually amboyna, but somebody painted it over black. Personally, I prefer the amboyna, so when I finally have it restored, the black paint will come off.

[Paul Groff]

Quite a few of the mid-nineteenth century english-made concertinas had solid rosewood ends. I have an early Scates treble in my shop with beautifully bookmatched solid rosewood ends, not cracked or warped a bit. This is Brazilian rosewood (=Amazon or Rio rosewood, Dalbergia nigra). In general the earliest english-system instruments show an incredible standard of woodworking and metalworking craftsmanship. John Crabb among others evidently had remarkable skills and very well seasoned timber! The early Louis Lachenal label "rosewood" anglos also had solid wood ends, and shrinkage and/or abuse of these has often led to checking, cracking, and even loss of sections of fretwork. I think the switch to a more robust laminate of veneers occurred after the change to the Lachenal & Co. label, but someone else may correct me on this. Jones made a lot of lovely anglos with solid rosewood ends, as did the Crabb and Jeffries workshops early on. I'm not sure when Wheatstone went from solid to laminated ends on the rosewood english concertinas. Can Neil Wayne or Wes help us? I used to think the severe cracking and fretwork loss often seen in "ebony ended" Lachenal New Model englishes and the ca. 1900 Wheatstone pinhole Aeolas was due to the use of solid ebony in the ends, but Colin Dipper mentioned (I think I recall) that this was due to the deterioration of another wood species by the logwood used to stain it black. The wonderful "ebony" Wheatstones I have seen from the period between the World Wars have all been "ebonized."

 

Paul

Edited September 20, 2003 by Paul Groff

[grumpyhermit]

Good discussion. I can only contribute on the woods as I see them used for purposes other than concertinas, i.e., custom knives, but wood is wood. Has anyone used the really great, hard woods such as Desert Ironwood and Lignum Vitae in concertinas? It seems to me that they would give a good, loud response as is seen in metal ends.

 

Bob

[goran rahm]

Concerning possible tonal differences between instruments with different wood species I mean you could expect some differences when comparing solid material ends at least if you compare extremes like a very soft/light species to a very hard/heavy one but like Chris said, since we mostly speak of veneer it becomes a dubious matter.

 

One particularly dubious part of it is that hearsay regarding tonal qualities can be expected to be founded on subjective impressions from a fairly small number of instruments which can be expected to vary in many respects. I have never come across two 'twin' instruments with rosewood and solid ebony ends respectively to provide a possible comparison. Even if you do meet such a pair you have to be able to systematically swap all exchangeable parts between for the comparison...this also seldom is possible to do. Even makers would have difficulties making proper comparisons since it demands industrial proportions which we hardly have with concertinas. Keep in mind that instruments

(pianos, guitars, flutes,violins etc...) which are more or less industrial produced often present tonal individual differences between seemingly identical products and it may be very hard to evaluate what causes the difference.

 

After ebony or ebonized ends were instroduced these instruments mostly belong to the general top quality line while rosewood less often seems to have been used for the best quality instruments. It would be interesting to know how the tradition developed with the 'classes' of quality related to mahogany, walnut, rosewood, ebony,amboyna....if firstly the price, exotism and carpentry 'status' of the species was guiding the differentiation or if there were any tonal quality ideas involved at all? The 'best' Wheatstones have been regarded being the amboyna ended ones but is that because selected reeds and other particular production features were special for them or has it anything at all to do with the wood?....I doubt that.

[dbowers]

As a testimony to the variation in mass-produced instruments, I remember a friend some years ago who wanted a Guild 12-string guitar. He was told that the only way to buy one was to go to a large store like Sam Ash in NYC and play every instrument they had until he found one that pleased him.

[JimLucas]

A classmate of my at university, on the other hand, had quite a different guitar story. While living in Japan, where his father was stationed, he went to the Yamaha factory, asked to see their top craftsman. He offered to pay $200, and asked for a guitar that was worth it. At the time Yamaha guitars were *retailing* for $65 or less in the US. He said that the craftsman took 6 months just to *select* the wood. It was indeed an exceptional instrument.

[goran rahm]

Bob said:" Has anyone used the really great, hard woods such as Desert Ironwood and Lignum Vitae in concertinas? It seems to me that they would give a good, loud response as is seen in metal ends."

 

Goran now:Almost everything has been used including 4mm bronze...:-) As I hinted you have to compare the *material* specifically while all other parameters are unchanged and *that* likely has *not* been done except possibly at some occasion in the 'old' days and by some of the more 'industrial' makers like Lachenals or Jones.I've never heard of it. Like we have said concerning even mass-produced instruments you need a considerably large sample to have a chance doing reliable comparisons.

What you say about "good, loud response as is seen in metal ends" often is a subject for misinterpretations as well. Metal ended instruments truly are often/mostly louder, and reasons for this are:

 

a) reflexion is greater and absorption less

fretwork often more open (larger opening area) than wooden

c) fretwork often less elaborate (shorter edge length/opening area)

d) end plates are thinner

e) at least with Anglos the introduction of metal ends to a great part was related to customer demands for loud and robust outdoor instruments which also caused a

coincident use of louder reeds

f) in some cases the use of 'Old Philharmonic Pitch' (a=452,5) like commonly in SA Anglos may increase the impression of 'loudness'

 

Co-variation of all these factors may cause a great deal of confusion and the factors and c) are almost generally present and they are influencial enough to explain a great deal of difference. These are the factors also most accessible for comparisons for *unreliable* comparisons since not seldom you can switch ends of 'twin' instruments, which players often do for curiosity but the results are dubious. Making ends with elaborate fretwork is so time consuming that you hardly get tempted making a few extras for one instrument just for curiosity....or for a whole batch of instruments.

 

At last, when you say "good response" that could be a bit confusing too. Often with 'response' you mean 'onset'. An instrument may have a 'good' response (=fast onset) without being loud and often the demands for fast onset has an inverse relation to loudness as you mostly have a fairly similar dynamic range. A loud reed may need a greater onset pressure gradient and may be louder at its minimum amplitude level. Brass reeds - which generally are not loud - may have (if well made and in good condition) a quite good 'response'(=onset).

 

Goran

[Chris Ghent]

I think the "ebony" on most concertina ends is actually dyed. I've been told that it's often dyed pear wood. The natural ebony I've seen, by the way, has been streaked with lighter colors. I think it's rare to get a large enough piece of solid black to do a full concertina end, so even if the end is real ebony, it may be dyed.

These days Ebony commonly comes in two variants, the very dark traditional ebony fron Africa and a lighter (in colour) wood called Macassar ebony, which hails from the East Indies. People sometimes use Macassar ebony because they want to be able to see some figure in the wood to show it is actually wood. The traditional ebony is so black it is usually hard to know what it is. If finished in gloss it might well be plastic.

 

Ebony was available in fairly large pieces once, big enough to do a concertina end, but I suspect given its lack of figure you would be hard pressed to know if they had glued several pieces together to make a piece large enough. Don't think large pieces are available now.

 

It is easy to understand the appeal of traditional ebony in a society (I'm thinking back to the 1800s here) in which manufacturing cannot turn out the astonishing purity of colour or texture modern methods can achieve at relatively low prices, and most of which we take for granted.

 

My Lachenal has a dyed wood action box but the tiny bezel around the edge of the metal end is genuine ebony. My Jeffries has a 1mm veneer of ebony all around the action box.

 

When I came to make the action box for my concertina project I decided to use ebony because I have loved the stuff since I got my first violin about 40 years ago. One of the good things about making a concertina is they are small and the best materials are affordable because you don't need very much. At this point I thought Jeffries had used veneer because they did not want to pay for solid ebony. Working with the ebony was a real joy, it machines like a metal, very precise. When I had the concertina assembled with action boxes, metal ends, reedpans, bellows, but no reeds or action it was already as heavy as my Jeffries complete. Now I know why they did not use it solid. I've included a pic of the effort to that point. I am remaking the ends at the moment and also the bellows, which are not bad but I just know I can do better. This is the first thing I have made in nearly 30 years. Well, that's my excuse.

 

All the books mention as it ages ebony becomes brittle and the fine filigree on the end of a concertina must be susceptible to breaking when knocked. Still looks great though.

 

Someone mentioned Lignum Vitae. This must be the oiliest wood in existence. I saw a friend turning a bagpipe chanter from it once and the chips came off and dropped vertically without any dust, piling up under the lathe like a thin stream of poured honey. It is very heavy.

 

Gosh, went on a bit, hope it wasn't too boring

 

regs

 

Chris

[d.elliott]

Most points seem to have been covered, but I'll add a couple of others:

 

I have seen Lachenal use ebonised mahogany for their 'ebony' ended instruments, most manufacturers used ebony veneer around the action box frames, or solid ebony for moulded details on say the detail around metal ends. Presumably so if the wood is chipped or banged the different colour won't grin through.

 

I have a pin hole six sided aeola (as mentioned above) and I have had to make complete new ends due to teh shrinkage and collapse of the orginal solid ebony end plates. I used sycamore and ebonised it. I have also seen that Crabb have used ebonised birch plywood.

 

Ebony does dry, crack/ check and can go quite powdery with age, Rosewood seems far more stable, durable and can be very attactively figured.

 

One final thought like a black coachworked car, its always harder to keep a black wooden ended instument looking at its best.

 

Dave

[Paul Groff]

Chris,

 

No, very interesting.

 

In my experience it is the Praed St. metal ended Jeffries that typically have real ebony veneer (which does often crack and chip from impact) while the early models (when metal-ended) have ebonized (pearwood?) veneer or sometimes lovely rosewood veneer on the sides of the action case. There is a LOT of variability in the woods Jeffries used, however. A questing mind?

 

Paul

[goran rahm]

Dave said:"I have a pin hole six sided aeola (as mentioned above) and I have had to make complete new ends due to teh shrinkage and collapse of the orginal solid ebony end plates. I used sycamore and ebonised it. I have also seen that Crabb have used ebonised birch plywood."

 

Goran now: Just as a example to show how (d)elusive the end plate matter may be I like to add that I have had a similar (ends...not "Aeola") pinhole instrument with destroyed ends (I also have a 'twin' with intact ends to compare with) and to make things easy I made the new ends from "masonite" and instead of a time consuming fretwork I made some violin type "f-holes". The instrument (purely by accident of course..) turned out to be tonally one of the very 'best'/nicest trebles I've come across and immediately was adopted by a very demanding friend of mine who had a free choice between various Aeolas and other top quality Wheatstones in original shape.....

One point is that these particular pinhole instruments (not the "Aeolas" like Dave's)have riveted reeds on a shallower reed frame than usual (this as far as I have seen seems to have been used by Wheatstones for a while in the 1880s-90s) which largely is responsible for the tone but the pinhole end type 'mutes' the tone a bit too much and a quite open (like the typical SSS-) fretwork does not offer the 'mellow but not muted' tone as the said 'homemade' ends do.

 

Again...the endplate material seemingly *may* have some influence on tone but reed characteristics and fretwork likely mostly has greater significance along with total effects from the box construction related to varying absorption. A curious detail...subjectively I'm convinced that the material (maybe even the size) of buttons have influence on tone (by absorption/reflexion in that case). Concerning 'resonance'...forget any thoughts on resonance in the wood! ....and until seeing some evidence I reject the idea of 'pipe' resonance from the reed chambers....'formant' resonance from the 'chamber' underneath the endplate however ought to be investigated.

 

Goran

[Paul Groff]

Jim-

 

The Yamaha story is great. I have seen some really fine ones. For the benefit of younger readers, we should remind them that when good Yamahas were $65, a good old Martin was a tenth (even a hundredth) of the price some fetch today, and how much were Aeolas? Still over the long term, the best (and most expensive) instrument may have been the real bargain.

 

Goran -

 

I agree with your comments on the dimensions of fretwork openings, the depth of reedpan chambers, and the effects of different button materials and dimensions, based on my observations in studying many concertinas and experimenting with rebuilding and "upgrading" badly damaged ones. However I think SOME of these subtle tonal differences due to reflection and selective "filtering" (attenuation of certain frequencies, whether "lowpass," "highpass," or "bandpass") are lost (or much modified) when you get a few feet away from the instrument. Even excellent metal-ended anglos in proper working order often have a few notes that sound duller than others because the pad opens under the hand rail, the strap, or the heel of the hand. But this uneven effect is most noticeable to the player, expecially when practicing in a quiet room. Ironically, some of the really great concert instruments (wooden-ended or metal-ended) sound better to an audience than to the player. The player is not getting all the tonal information the instrument projects and may also hear some exaggerated unbalanced harmonics that diminish rapidly with distance. This may be one reason that amateurs (with no disrespect implied by this term) may prefer (maybe SHOULD prefer) different instruments than professionals.

 

Dave-

 

I appreciate your excellent point that even when the fretwork is solid wood, the casework sides are typically veneered (except in mahogany instruments). I use "ends" as in metal ends to refer to the fretwork (...usually....). Some of the old catalogs referred to "metal top," rosewood top," etc., possibly to avoid this confusion. So ends of the pinhole Aeolas were solid ebony? This is what I once thought but believe I remember being corrected by a knowledgeable source (maybe this memory is wrong). I have some wrecked fretwork from one in my shop & will try to remember to bring it home for microscopic investigation! Many of these have not held up well.

 

Paul

Edited September 23, 2003 by Paul Groff

[d.elliott]

Paul,

 

I can vouch that the pin hole Aeola hass solid ebony finger plates. I actually tried to let in replacement ebony patches but the old wood was too dry and powdery, it rubbed off on my fingers.

 

On the subject of woods, I may have mentioned elsewhere that I am repairing a very large Wheatstone bass, mainly a joinery or perhaps a cabinet making task. Here the ends are ebonised mahogany (elongated hexagon shape), accross the points major axis 15ins, accross the flats minor axis 11.5ins)

 

The framework is all mahogany, veneered with ebony. The pad board is mahogany with a sycamore action plate mounted onto it.

 

The main chambers are built into the casing, and have a sycamore reed plate perminently built onto the case to form a sandwich, with the chambers in the middle. Being single action, the reeds are surface mounted onto the 'underside' of the reed plate. There are some bigger reeds that have suspended chambers.

 

So why use scamore for the reed plate, I can also see (through pad holes) that the chamber walls are also sycamore.?? Also for the suspended chambers a mix of chamber walls -mahogany and for the reed mounting and the chamber 'underside' wall -sycamore, ??

 

Can it be for acoustic properties or for wood working & detail properties?

 

any thoughts team??

 

Should this be continued under 'Construction and Repair'??

 

Dave

[Chris Ghent]

In my experience it is the Praed St. metal ended Jeffries that typically have real ebony veneer (which does often crack and chip from impact) while the early models (when metal-ended) have ebonized (pearwood?) veneer or sometimes lovely rosewood veneer on the sides of the action case. There is a LOT of variability in the woods Jeffries used, however. A questing mind?

Interesting, mine is a C.Jeffries, Maker era, and I realise I have made an assumption on the veneer being ebony. I say this because there are no cracks or breakages that might reveal an internal colour other than black.

 

I think I assumed it was ebony because it was a black veneer, and if you are going to ebonise something, why would you put an ebonised veneer on, why not just ebonise the base wood? To find out you would have to take off the end plate and not many people do that.

 

Maybe it is just a really good job of ebonising. I hope I never ding it enough to find out!

 

As far as Jeffries variation in woods goes, I wonder whether price and availability might have been the motives. I say this after a day spent talking to Geoff Crabb, who opens your eyes to the likelyhood of practical motives being behind the decisions we pick over looking for scientific reasons.

 

regs

 

Chris