Reed Pan/reed 'cleaning', Fixing Tight Bolts

[Roger Hare]

I've just had the end off concertina #10 - a slightly 'lived-in' Lachenal 20-button C/G.

 

Two years in, I'm still very much a novice at repair/maintenance so, although I've done

this 2-3 times now, I'm still cautious about poking about inside my instruments.

 

The idea was to give the reeds a 'tweak' and blow away any dust, etc. I'm amazed at

the difference such a simple procedure has made to the way the instrument sounds!

Before, it was marginal, now it's a playable instrument. It still needs some TLC, but it

is now clear that I have an instrument which is well worth 'restoring'. Goodie!

 

Two questions arise which don't seem to be answered in Dave Elliots manual:

 

1: Several of the reed frames (and the reeds) are slightly discoloured due to oxidation.

They are not corroded. Should I clean them? How? I'm reluctant to go near any of

this stuff with files/emery paper...

 

2: One or two of the bolts securing the end to the bellows frame were really quite

tight. I suspect they've not been off since the instrument left the shop (80-90 years

ago?). I managed to get them all out (and back in) without damaging them, but is there

anything I can do to 'lubricate' the bolt holes to make future disassembly/reassembly

easier? I wondered if a little powdered graphite might be acceptable? The manual says

not to use fluids/oils - which is fine by me.

 

Thank you in advance for any advice/suggestions.

 

Roger

Edited November 16, 2016 by lachenal74693

[Patrick McMahon]

I personally would leave the reeds and frames alone, unless they need tuning anyway. If the reeds are brass, the layer of oxide prevents further oxidation, so if you clean them, they start over again.

 

I would look at the tight screws with a strong lens or specs, to see if they've been cross-threaded or are corroded.

You need to be careful and patient with any thread when first turning it, and be sensitive to how it starts. If it tightens up really quickly, you might be cross-threading it, and it's best to take it out and start again.

 

If you can see no damage to the thread, but it looks dirty or corroded, I would give it a light brushing with a soft wire brush, and put it back in carefully, with nothing added. You could do a few cycles of going in and out to loosen any stiffness.

[Theo]

If the end bolts are steel they may corrode and become tight where they pass through the hole in the wooden end. Bolts should slide easily through the hole without being loose. Clean any rust off the shank of the bolt, if still tight the hole might need to be cleaned out being very careful not to enlarge the hole beyond its original size.

[Roger Hare]

If the end bolts are steel they may corrode and become tight where they pass through the hole in the wooden end. Bolts should slide easily through the hole without being loose. Clean any rust off the shank of the bolt, if still tight the hole might need to be cleaned out being very careful not to enlarge the hole beyond its original size.

 

I personally would leave the reeds and frames alone, unless they need tuning anyway. If the reeds are brass, the layer of oxide prevents further oxidation, so if you clean them, they start over again.

 

I would look at the tight screws with a strong lens or specs, to see if they've been cross-threaded or are corroded.

You need to be careful and patient with any thread when first turning it, and be sensitive to how it starts. If it tightens up really quickly, you might be cross-threading it, and it's best to take it out and start again.

 

If you can see no damage to the thread, but it looks dirty or corroded, I would give it a light brushing with a soft wire brush, and put it back in carefully, with nothing added. You could do a few cycles of going in and out to loosen any stiffness.

 

Thank you gentlemen!

 

Being bone lazy, the 'do nowt' approach in respect of the reeds (which are brass)

and the reed frames suits me very well.

 

The bolts look like steel, and I'm 99.9% certain I didn't cross-thread 'em when

putting the end on again. I'll have them out again in a week or so(*) and give

them the TCP and wire brush treatment.

 

I can look at the bolt holes at the same time.

 

Thank you for the input. Very helpful. We learn - slowly, but we learn...

 

Roger

 

(*) I need to have another look - there appear to be a couple of valves 'missing'

at the high end, but the notes still sound in both directions, and the reed pan looks

as if there never have been valves there - another minor puzzle...

Edited November 16, 2016 by lachenal74693

[Theo]

there appear to be a couple of valves 'missing' at the high end, but the notes still sound in both directions, and the reed pan looks

as if there never have been valves there - another minor puzzle...

The high notes work best without valves.

[Roger Hare]

The high notes work best without valves.

 

Thank you. That was the conclusion I had arrived at.

 

Roger

[Dana Johnson]

Agree with others, leave the frames and reeds alone. Also checking the bolts for corrosion, but unlike the action or reeds of an instrument which will accumulate dust and grit if a liquid.non-drying lube is used on them, the bolts do not. There are a number of spray type lubes on the market that leave a dry wax like film which lubricates and protects from corrosion. ( modern bicycle chain lube for instance.). They are less messy than graphite and stay on better. I use molybdenum disulfide on The hand rest bolts in my concertinas ( but not needed on my stainless end bolts ) but it has an affinity for metals and tends not to rub off. Otherwise it has the same structure as graphite.

One issue with lubricants of any sort, is that by reducing turning friction on the threads, they allow you to put much more tension on the bolt with the same turning force. This usually is not enough to snap steel bolts, but the same can't be said for brass or the nickel silver bolts found on some Wheatstones. Most of the bolts I've seen on Lachenals were brass, with steel used to replace broken ones. It is not unusual for someone to over tighten an end bolt and shear it off. Ideally the bolt should screw in with little effort (unless the holes are slightly misaligned ) until the end are together at which time the turning force will increase steeply indicating time to stop. It is always a good idea to put all the bolts in loosely at first to allow the end to line up correctly with all the holes, then finish in a star pattern till just barely snug to avoid pulling one side down first, then finish tightening in the star pattern again.

Dana

Edited November 19, 2016 by Dana Johnson

[Roger Hare]

Agree with others, leave the frames and reeds alone......It is always a good idea to put all the bolts in loosely at first to allow the

end to line up correctly with all the holes, then finish in a star pattern till just barely snug to avoid pulling one side down first, then

finish tightening in the star pattern again.

 

I just had the end off again to give the bolts a very light wire-brushing (brass-bristled brush) and

I can now see that the tight bolt is almost certainly tight due to the fact that it is very slightly bent.

I didn't notice this before. I need to source a replacement.

 

I will certainly chase up some lubricant of the type you describe - I may already have some in the

'bike box'.

 

I always treat sets of screws/bolts like this in the way you describe. I'm rapidly coming to the

conclusion that for concertinas, given a good seal, just a little bit tighter than finger tight is the

correct setting for these end-bolts.

 

Thank you.

 

Roger

Edited November 19, 2016 by lachenal74693

[d.elliott]

 

If the end bolts are steel they may corrode and become tight where they pass through the hole in the wooden end. Bolts should slide easily through the hole without being loose. Clean any rust off the shank of the bolt, if still tight the hole might need to be cleaned out being very careful not to enlarge the hole beyond its original size.

 

I personally would leave the reeds and frames alone, unless they need tuning anyway. If the reeds are brass, the layer of oxide prevents further oxidation, so if you clean them, they start over again.

 

I would look at the tight screws with a strong lens or specs, to see if they've been cross-threaded or are corroded.

You need to be careful and patient with any thread when first turning it, and be sensitive to how it starts. If it tightens up really quickly, you might be cross-threading it, and it's best to take it out and start again.

 

If you can see no damage to the thread, but it looks dirty or corroded, I would give it a light brushing with a soft wire brush, and put it back in carefully, with nothing added. You could do a few cycles of going in and out to loosen any stiffness.

 

Thank you gentlemen!

 

Being bone lazy, the 'do nowt' approach in respect of the reeds (which are brass)

and the reed frames suits me very well.

 

The bolts look like steel, and I'm 99.9% certain I didn't cross-thread 'em when

putting the end on again. I'll have them out again in a week or so(*) and give

them the TCP and wire brush treatment.

 

I can look at the bolt holes at the same time.

 

Thank you for the input. Very helpful. We learn - slowly, but we learn...

 

Roger

 

(*) I need to have another look - there appear to be a couple of valves 'missing'

at the high end, but the notes still sound in both directions, and the reed pan looks

as if there never have been valves there - another minor puzzle...

 

 

 

If you have reed frame discolouring, it is no issue. if you have corrosion 'salts' forming then you can remove it mechanically by careful scraping, but only if it becomes an issue . Just check that there are no salts forming in the frame vent, this may need removing if it starts to foul the reed tongue.

 

Tight end bolts either will back out with patience or will shear off. eitherway do resist the urge to give things a puff of WD40 It can knacker the concertina. I am sure that Dana's advice is to treat the cleaned bolts out of the instrument. The old way was to rub bees wax into the threads.

 

Dave

Edited November 19, 2016 by d.elliott

[Roger Hare]

If you have reed frame discolouring, it is no issue. if you have corrosion 'salts' forming then you can remove it mechanically by careful scraping, but only if it becomes an issue . Just check that there are no salts forming in the frame vent, this may need removing if it starts to foul the reed tongue.

 

Tight end bolts either will back out with patience or will shear off. eitherway do resist the urge to give things a puff of WD40 It can knacker the concertina. I am sure that Dana's advice is to treat the cleaned bolts out of the instrument. The old way was to rub bees wax into the threads.

 

I have your manual by my side as I type this ...

 

No 'salts' just discolouring, so I'll leave 'em alone.

 

It's because I have a deep-seated distrust of WD40 and its ilk in 'traditional' environments

(like wooden boats) that I raised the question here. I never thought of beeswax - I have loads

of that in my 'bosuns boatie bag'.

 

Thanks.

 

Roger

[Dana Johnson]

The only place I use WD40 is machining aluminum ( which I use making jigs, not in concertinas ). Dave is absolutely right, treat bolts out of the concertina. If I ever need to apply a liquid lube in situ, I always spray a little in a bottle cap and use a piece of fine wire to transfer a bit of a drop to the location. Even so, it is rarely ever needed. ( and again, I prefer the penetrating lubes that leave a waxy dry film once the vehicle has evaporated.).

On another note, I recently discovered that some leathers (white alum tanned in particular ) will produce corrosion even in arid environments. In reed frames and even steel reeds that are in close proximity. I have seen this sort of leather as valves in a lot of old instruments with tarnished and corroded frames that hadn't been re valved. But didn't make the connection until one of my own instruments came in for tuning how direct the correlation was. The few reeds that used the white alum tanned leather showed tarnish right next to the valve, diminishing the farther away you got from the valve. Needless to say, I swapped them all out for a different material.

Dana

[d.elliott]

good tip about the alum tanned leather, I shall remember (as much as age will permit)

 

Dave