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Anglo Concertina Weight


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#1 KelTekgolow

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 05:29 AM

I have just weighed  my concertinas

 

Dipper Merlin 36 Key C/G 3lb 5oz 1.490 Kg

 

Dipper Singswell 36 Key D/G 3lb 10oz 1.650 Kg

 

AC Norman 32 Key C/G 2lb 12oz 1.220Kg

 

Edgley 30key Bb/F 3lb 3oz 1.425Kg

 

It would be nice to see how they compaire with others.  Bpb



#2 Takayuki YAGI

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 05:39 AM

Just for your information, here is a very old page about concertina weight. http://www.concertin...de_weights.html

 

--

Taka



#3 KelTekgolow

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 10:29 AM

Thanks Taka .It might be time for a new list  ? Bob



#4 BW77

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 04:55 AM

Thanks Taka .It might be time for a new list  ? Bob

A curious question...for what purpose?? If you compare the same size basic models ( say 30 key anglos or 48 key English trebles) - those with metal ends and metal buttons are a bit heavier than those with wooden ends and bone buttons but they are so light anyway that it  hardly matters. If you rest the instrument on the knee when playing seated the weight difference is totally unimportant and IF the weight is an issue when playing standing you may just use shoulder straps and the possible weight difference is again unimportant. Makers of light instruments ( maybe being so from modern material substitutes ) can of course use the *lightness* as a cheap marketing argument and many players take it for granted ( as earlier topics on the issue reveals) that instrument  weight got some significant importance for performance effort which it hardly has unless you wish to swing the instrument around as when doing "The Bells" or something alike.



#5 Robin Madge

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 05:35 PM

Doing the bells with my Lachenal Barritone Anglo (octave below normal C/G 36 buttons) can be good exercise. 

4lb 13oz, or 1.852 kg.

 

I do sing "Sweet Bells", one of the Sheffield "While Shepherds" while doing the bells on the chorus with my Lachenal Bb/F 32 button.

2lb 11oz, or 1.216 kg, now that can become exhausting if you do all the verses!

 

Robin Madge



#6 BW77

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 03:20 AM

Doing the bells with my Lachenal Barritone Anglo (octave below normal C/G 36 buttons) can be good exercise. 4lb 13oz, or 1.852 kg.....

...doing the bells on the chorus with my Lachenal Bb/F 32 button. 2lb 11oz, or 1.216 kg, now that can become exhausting if you do all the verses!

Robin Madge

Certainly so...like I said...only when swinging the instrument around like that its weight may become an issue. On the other hand swinging a couple of kg really is not a major effort if you got average fitness. I guess you agree that the problem doing it with concertinas isn't  the 1.8 or 1.2 kg firstly but rather the strain holding them properly during the procedure.  



#7 Robin Madge

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 06:08 AM

I don't have a problem with holding the concertina, my problem is to do with the fact that I have problems with working with my hands above my head, painting ceilings etc. although I can lift quite heavy weights so it is not pure arm strength.

Once went to a Tai Chi class at Ely Folk festival where we were supposed to hold our arms out horizontally to the sides; after 30 seconds or so my arms were shaking.

Lukily swinging the concertina does not mean holding it stationary!

 

Robin Madge



#8 KelTekgolow

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 07:38 AM

My problem  is Arthritus in my hands and I find playing my G/D with its large bellows and big reeds hard work .(Yes of course I rest it on my leg ) I love to sing with my concertinas so I am thinking of a smaller G/D .Present instrument as I said above 36 Key 6.5" A F 8 Fold Bellows .When asking about weights I had in mind that a smaller instrument would be the answer. I no lomger use the G/D for Morris much .I dont like wearing a neck strap and I find a C/G played outside can be heard better.

So I am still thinking of a smaller lighter 7 fold 30 Key to accompany singing .If any one has a concertina that would suite PM me Thanks Bob


Edited by KelTekgolow, 04 February 2017 - 07:45 AM.


#9 BW77

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 11:41 AM

1. My problem  is Arthritus in my hands and I find playing my G/D with its large bellows and big reeds hard work .(Yes of course I rest it on my leg ).....

2. When asking about weights I had in mind that a smaller instrument would be the answer.....

3. I dont like wearing a neck strap...

1. What problems exactly does your arthritis cause? Is load/effort painful? Thumbs firstly? Other fingers? One extra fold hardly means anything but the larger diameter may demand some extra work. Since you rest the instrument on your leg the *weight* difference itself ought to be negligable except unless you rest just one end on one leg and work the bellows with the other hand hand only ( all the time...) Do you?  Maybe you can rest one end on each leg? Or both ends ride on one leg?

2. Like I said before....the weight itself hardly is the issue if you play seated allready resting it on the leg. The diameter is of greater importance concerning the effort  playing a larger concertina ( unless you swing it around....)

3. A neck strap is no good at all...IF some aid is needed when playing standing/walking it ought to be some shoulder strap(s) instead.



#10 Jeff Loen

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 05:09 PM

Ergonomics aside, I think there are good acoustical reasons to focus on the weights of musical instruments.

 

I did a survey of weights of fine violins, violas, cellos and found that the ones favored by the best musicians were within a narrow range of weights.  Yes, I know concertinas are different.  Or are they?  Perhaps decide after we collect and analyze the data.  Sometimes the most amazing things fall out of a good database.



#11 BW77

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 01:59 AM

1. Ergonomics aside, I think there are good acoustical reasons to focus on the weights of musical instruments.

2 .I did a survey of weights of fine violins, violas, cellos and found that the ones favored by the best musicians were within a narrow range of weights. 

3. Yes, I know concertinas are different.  Or are they? 

4. Perhaps decide after we collect and analyze the data.  Sometimes the most amazing things fall out of a good database.

Some comments to the above...starting from the last point

4. A scientific approach may be positive of course but "a good database" is meaningful if you know *what* to analyze from it...

1. It is hard to see *weight* as anything but an *ergonomic* issue with musical instruments. Concerning *acoustical* qualities weight can possibly be a co-variable related to stability of materials and their absorption capacities... factors of importance for instruments having resonating boards, chambers, tubes... like piano, violin, guitar,  vibraphone etc... but not for squeezeboxes in general ( there are exceptions, like experimental prototypes and accordion "cassotto" constructions) and particularly not for "our" kind of concertinas.

So...if you just document *weight* you may at best get some indication regarding *other* factors of some acoustical importance

2. I am still a bit curious to hear what exactly did you survey?  

3. YES...concertinas/squeezeboxes are entirely different from string instruments in this respect since they lack any intentional resonator. Theoretically some resonance phenomena still may occur by accident, some likely negligable, but some hypothetically of marginal importance for tone. THIS might be an interesting subject for experimental systematic exploration... hardly by focusing on *weight*....  but on choice of materials and construction measures. A great deal has been done with accordions in fact and concertinas are of course basically alike but documentary research on concertinas still is poor.



#12 Tom Rhoads

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 11:53 AM

I have two C/G Anglos.

My Morse Ceili (all wood, accordion reeds) weighs 2 lbs 1.7oz (954g). My Kensington (metal ends, traditional reeds) weighs 3 lbs 2.5oz (1.43kg)

 

The difference is pronounced. I think the Morse must be one of the lightest concertinas there is, and, needless to say, it's way more comfortable to play standing up. I don't have particularly robust wrists, and sometimes that difference really matters to me. In the situations where I want to play standing up, I don't think that a neck/shoulder strap is very desirable for me. I improvised one once (for another larger box) and I didn't think it was great.  One of the reasons I still have the Morse is because it weighs so much less.

 

On the other hand, I agree with the builder of the Kensington that it's a feature, rather than a bug, of the that instrument's design that it is built very solidly and has end frames of a composite material that I think is probably heavier than typical concertina woods, but which is super-stable and durable (and I suppose may have desirable sonic properties as well, as it's very hard and therefore probably absorbs little energy). I play the Kensington a lot more. It sounds better to me for most of the music I play.

 

I would be curious to learn about the weights of other 30 button C/G Anglos, for comparison. Is my Kensington heavier than a vintage box? By how much?

 

Some knowledge of weights might inform future purchases - and then again it might not, since the sound, reed response, button and bellows action, and (for better or worse) price will probably always be more important.

 

TomR



#13 Ken_Coles

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 12:32 PM

I have two C/G Anglos.

My Morse Ceili (all wood, accordion reeds) weighs 2 lbs 1.7oz (954g). My Kensington (metal ends, traditional reeds) weighs 3 lbs 2.5oz (1.43kg)

 

The difference is pronounced. I think the Morse must be one of the lightest concertinas there is, and, needless to say, it's way more comfortable to play standing up. I don't have particularly robust wrists, and sometimes that difference really matters to me. In the situations where I want to play standing up, I don't think that a neck/shoulder strap is very desirable for me. I improvised one once (for another larger box) and I didn't think it was great.  One of the reasons I still have the Morse is because it weighs so much less.

 

On the other hand, I agree with the builder of the Kensington that it's a feature, rather than a bug, of the that instrument's design that it is built very solidly and has end frames of a composite material that I think is probably heavier than typical concertina woods, but which is super-stable and durable (and I suppose may have desirable sonic properties as well, as it's very hard and therefore probably absorbs little energy). I play the Kensington a lot more. It sounds better to me for most of the music I play.

 

I would be curious to learn about the weights of other 30 button C/G Anglos, for comparison. Is my Kensington heavier than a vintage box? By how much?

 

Chris Timson said the same thing about the Morse in his review when it first came out over fifteen years ago - you can read it at the Concertina faq.

 

I also have a Kensington, and it is comparable in inertia to many vintage instruments, as Dana Johnson has commented (long ago in a thread here, I think).

 

I like both of them.  I have been hammering on my Morse (it is my usual travel box) for 16 years now and it is in great shape - as durable as a good vintage instrument.  Many of the hybrid instruments (those built by individual makers, rather than factories) are proving quite durable.  As the ancient page shows, we all get curious about weight (button rake, layout, etc.) early on but many folks I know just pick something and run with it (squeeze with it?).

 

Ken



#14 BW77

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 03:33 PM

My Morse Ceili (all wood, accordion reeds) weighs 2 lbs 1.7oz (954g). My Kensington (metal ends, traditional reeds) weighs 3 lbs 2.5oz (1.43kg)

 

1.The difference is pronounced. I think the Morse must be one of the lightest concertinas there is, and, needless to say, it's way more comfortable to play standing up. I don't have particularly robust wrists, and sometimes that difference really matters to me.

 

2. In the situations where I want to play standing up, I don't think that a neck/shoulder strap is very desirable for me. I improvised one once (for another larger box) and I didn't think it was great.  One of the reasons I still have the Morse is because it weighs so much less.

 

3. I would be curious to learn about the weights of other 30 button C/G Anglos, for comparison. Is my Kensington heavier than a vintage box? By how much?

 

TomR

Concerning 1-3 above:

1. With this comparison you are expected to notice "pronounced" difference ( ca 50 %) as you say. When the difference is 10-20 %

it may be regarded as negligable as such. BUT there are still so many factors involved that determine IF the factual difference IS of practical importance. It seems to be so for You...but maybe not necessarily so after all...?? For example the wrist issue.. .if playing seated resting the instrument on the leg - NO importance...if playing standing with the instrument held low - NO importance...if playing standing with forearms horisontal - MAYBE important...but it depends on what instrument and how you hold it....

2. Neckstraps should NEVER be used....WHAT kind of shoulder strap(s)  have you tried and for how long? What was it that was not "desirable" with them? In principle shoulder straps ought to eliminate ALL problems regarding *weight*.....

3. Summing up let's say that trad built 30 key "vintage" treble anglos with wooden ends and bone buttons weigh 1-1.2 kg. Add 150-200 g for metal ends and 150-200 g for (all-)metal buttons and your Kensington will be roughly the same as similar vintage models. 

What buttons does it have? If delrin maybe the rest of it is slightly heavier than the others but hardly so much that it matters.

 

At last...if your wrists are causing you trouble I suggest you consider ALL factors involved and don't keep staring at the *weight* even if you do notice this "pronounced" difference because there are so many ways to deal with the primary issue...the wrists ...not the weight...keep in mind that you can never eliminate the remaining at least 954g anyway....



#15 BW77

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 03:49 PM

I also have a Kensington, and it is comparable in inertia to many vintage instruments, as Dana Johnson has commented (long ago in a thread here, I think).

 

What do you - or maybe Dana Johnson actually - mean by "inertia" ? The *weight issue* sometimes tends to be a bit confusing since some players seem to mix up problems truly related to *weight*( = mass)  as when swinging the instrument around or transporting it between gigs ....and impressions of "heaviness" when playing larger instruments or instruments with a different construction.



#16 Ken_Coles

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 09:34 AM

I don't really want to get drawn into a physics debate, so it's fine if no one agrees with this...(the term was mine, not Dana's, by the way).  There is weight - what the entire object registers sitting on a scale.  Mass (moment of linear inertia) times the acceleration due to Earth's gravity.  Then, for me, there is something like (but not same as) rotational inertia, or what work I do to manipulate one end and swing it and change its position as I play and push it in and out.  Probably it is just mass again, but in one end only if I rest the other on my leg.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm thinking this way because this is the week we cover Kepler's and Newton's Laws in one class I teach, and I'm doing rotational moment in the other class.

 

So, would a concertina be easier to play on Mars (if you had the same muscles, only 37% of Earth's gravity)?  It might be a lot softer, with such thin air!

 

Ken



#17 BW77

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 12:48 PM

I don't really want to get drawn into a physics debate, so it's fine if no one agrees with this...(the term was mine, not Dana's, by the way).  There is weight - what the entire object registers sitting on a scale.  Mass (moment of linear inertia) times the acceleration due to Earth's gravity.  Then, for me, there is something like (but not same as) rotational inertia, or what work I do to manipulate one end and swing it and change its position as I play and push it in and out.  Probably it is just mass again, but in one end only if I rest the other on my leg.

Ken

Thanks Ken, very good, let's stay on this planet with Galilei and Newton...leaving Mars and relativity aside so far...and let us see where we get...

I would suggest that (objections are welcome...)

1.  inertia is involved if you swing the instrument around or wave it some way to and fro or wobble the ends or rotate them

2.  inertia is not involved if you just push and pull the bellows in and out

3.  mass is of importance in 1. above and 4. if you  lift (and pump) with one end and rest the other on the leg

5.  mass is of no importance if you rest both ends on the legs or hang the instrument up in shoulder straps

6.  mass is of importance if playing with forearms horisontal 

7.  mass is of no or negligable importance if playing with stretched arms in a low position (with common treble size instruments)

8.  This means that when discussing the importance of *weight* and when comparing instruments we have to consider these factors 1-7 ( and a few more... concerning performance situations)  to make opinions/arguments understandable



#18 Jody Kruskal

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 01:30 AM

My Morse 30 button C/G is way easier to play than my other Anglos standing or sitting. It just takes less effort. I often have gigs where I'm dancing around, or standing, or playing for long periods of time and the Morse is my instrument of choice for those at 2.3 lb.

 

My Dipper 40 button G/D is heavy at 3.5 lb and requires much more effort to play standing or sitting. I perform on it often for singing gigs and often stand when doing so. The sound is richer and deeper and worth the extra effort.

 

How much of that difference of effort between playing the two is caused by the 1.2 lb weight difference as opposed to how hard I have to squeeze them? Hard to say, but at a guess, I would say 50/50. Weight is not everything in determining playability, but it seems to me to be important and believe me, I do feel that extra 1.2 lb dragging my arms down and the effort it takes to counter gravity and inertia with the change of direction takes way more energy than I would like to spend. I know I would play better on Mars.

 

More to the point of this discussion... weight might be good to talk about and compare. I think that every ounce matters. Certainly it is easier to measure weight compared to the other factors that effect playability or effort needed... those factors are much more complicated.

 

The joys and pitfalls of playing while standing probably deserves it's own thread, might even be one here already.


Edited by Jody Kruskal, 07 February 2017 - 01:53 AM.





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