Temperature Problems?

[Alan Day]

Have any of you experienced problems due to extremes of temperature effecting your concertina?

If my Jeffries gets really cold certain reeds stick and will not play unless warmer air is pushed into the concertina and then suddenly they unstick.Luckily I have recognised this problem ,but I can imagine someone doing a great deal of work to unstick a reed that just wants warming up.

Also I have asked the question before,but my suspicion is that at extremes of temperature the reeds play slightly out of tune due to expansion or contraction .Can anyone confirm my thoughts on this subject please.

Al

Edited September 29, 2004 by Alan Day

[Robin Madge]

The problem with trying to determine if your concertina has changed pitch in the heat or the cold is finding something to check it against that is unaffected itself.

 

Do electronic tuners keep their pitch in extremes of temperature?

 

Also, does air pressure or even air pollution affect pitch ?

 

How about playing a concertina in a bag filled with Helium?

 

Robin Madge

[Peter Stephenson]

First you have to find a bag big enough to play inside.

[Denis]

When my 1915 Wheastone Aola is played in a damp atmosphere (like when we stayed in an old signalling tower on the Isles of Scilly last year) I have one note - F# which sounds on both it's fundamental frequency and an octave below at the same time!

 

Cheers

 

Denis

[Alan Day]

Robin, Sing it like Beckham ?

Al

[Robin Harrison]

Here in Ontario we have extremes of humidity....so in the summer you use a dehumidifer and /or air-conditioning then in winter with extreme cold you have to use a humidifier because the air gets so dry ( people get sore throats,nose bleeds etc from the dryness).

So I find on some of my concertinas when the season changes over,from dehumidifying to humidifying, reeds stick. When they are acclimatized they return again...I do try to maintain as constant a humidity as possible but I used to take the ends off and look for reasons why, now I just wait and eventually it sorts itself out.

I've often wondered whether a concertina would last in the Tropics .Do we have any tropical members ?

Robin

[Stephen Mills]

I've often wondered whether a concertina would last in the Tropics .Do we have any tropical members ? 

                                       

To the best of my knowledge, we have only one member within the two tropical zones. That is Nanette in Townsville, Queensland, just a bit within the lower bounds. Next closest is Pompano Beach, Florida, not exactly equatorial. I have no consistent data to report from 30 deg latitude, humid Houston, as it's never really dry here and I've never played concertina elsewhere.

 

Anything to contribute, Nanette? Birmingham AL can also be pretty humid. Bob Tedrow might also be able to speak on this subject.

[JimLucas]

If my Jeffries gets really cold certain reeds stick and will not play unless warmer air is pushed into the concertina and then suddenly they unstick.

I think it was reported previously that this can happen if the temperature gets really low, though I have played a concertina -10 C weather without experiencing a problem. (I was playing the concertina, because I didn't want to risk my lips freezing to the mouthpiece of my trumpet. ) It seems reasonable that the different expansion coefficients of brass and steel could result in the reed frame contracting to where there's not enough clearance for the reed.

 

I would be cautious about pumping warm air through. Slightly warmer might be OK, but sudden large changes of temperature can encourage cracking in wooden parts such as reed.pans and pad boards.

 

Do electronic tuners keep their pitch in extremes of temperature?

There should be no noticeable effect at any temperature a human can survive long enough to play a tune.

 

Also, does air pressure or even air pollution affect pitch ?

Air pressure might have a small effect, but I don't know if it would be enough to notice.

Air pollution shouldn't make a noticeable difference, maybe not even helium. Unlike in a flute or the human vocal tract, the vibration causing the sound in a concertina -- or a fiddle, for that matter -- is not the "air" vibrating, so the composition of the air shouldn't matter. (The reason your voice's pitch changes in a helium atmosphere is that the speed of sound in helium is much higher than in the nitrogen-oxygen mixture we call "air", so the vibration travels back and forth in your voice's resonant cavity many more times per second.)

 

How about playing a concertina in a bag filled with Helium?

Playing shouldn't be a problem.

Singing along in the same key might prove a challenge.

First you have to find a bag big enough to play inside.

Maybe Wendy could crochet one?

 

When my 1915 Wheastone Aola is played in a damp atmosphere (like when we stayed in an old signalling tower on the Isles of Scilly last year) I have one note - F# which sounds on both it's fundamental frequency and an octave below at the same time!

Variations in humidity can cause the wood of the reed pan to swell or shrink slightly. This can result in a previously well-seated reed frame becoming either too tight or too loose in its slot, which can result in any number of problems. E.g., either extreme can result in the reed sounding "raspy", or not sounding at all. The appearance of the "subharmonic" F# could be due to a very precise "imbalance" of this sort. Just opening up the instrument and reseating the reed frame in its slot might solve the problem permanently... or maybe not. Then again, maybe you don't want it "cured". A couple of my own instruments seemed to need the reed frames reseated twice a year when I lived in New York City, with its humid summers and very dry steam heat in the winter.

 

I've often wondered whether a concertina would last in the Tropics .Do we have any tropical members ?

I don't know about tropical members, but I just had a bite of a papaya, a tropical fruit.

Seriously, though, some concertinas were made specially with non-ferrous reeds, specifically for use in the tropics.

[JimLucas]

Next closest is Pompano Beach, Florida, not exactly equatorial.

Oh, but it has been humid in that area recently, hasn't it?

Hmm. Does one get the same effect from a hurricane as from a ceiling fan, only more so?

[Daniel Bradbury]

I live in Tampa Florida now and experience no particular problems. I have carried my concertina with me when I either lived in and/or worked in Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Indonesia (Java and Sumatra), and Swaziland. Some very dry and some very humid. I have experienced no particular problems. I am carefull not to rest it on my bare leg when playing while wearing short pants, or leaving it exposed to direct sun, mist or rain. I believe a well made instrument will adapt to most conditions. The only problem I noted was when traveling from a humid zone to a dry zone by air, sometimes the glue would give on a pad during or shortly after the flight. Mind you these were most likely original pads on a turn of the centry instrument, and it probably had to do with shrinkage due to the extremely dry air in the airplane's cabin.

[Nanette Hooker]

[To the best of my knowledge, we have only one member within the two tropical zones.  That is Nanette in Townsville, Queensland, just a bit within the lower bounds.  Anything to contribute, Nanette?

Yes I live in the tropics. Townsville is situated at latitude 19.26 degrees south in Queensland, Australia. Winters are dry and warm (and pleasant), and summers, are hot (between about 23 to 31 degrees Centigrade = 73 to 88 degrees Fahrenheit) but characterised by high humidity and heavy rain (the "wet" season).

 

I have not noticed any problems with my instrument in this climate (I would never leave it in a car or the sun). The humidity in the summer can cause two problems. Firstly there is the fan/air conditioner effect (see other discussion), and the other is to do with sweaty fingers which slide off the buttons (but that's a personal problem).

 

Amended to include temperature conversion.

Edited October 1, 2004 by Poaceae

[geoffwright]

Hot weather makes my concertinas owner get thirsty and drink beer, causing speed problems.

[ucyljad]

Folks,

 

Jim Lucas wrote:

"I think it was reported previously that this can happen if the temperature gets really low"

 

 

...I might have said that when visiting my parents in Co. Durham for Christmas I left my concertina in the unheated Sitting Room overnight. It was frosty outside, and I was a bit worried when I could get only a very few notes to sound. However after an hour in the Living Room with the gentle heat of a coal fire it was back to normal. My father just laughed as, having played in an orchestras for decades, he has seen the problems brass & woodwind instruments experience with varying temperatures.

 

I've also noticed that at work where the temperature is a pleasant 80ish+ the instrument definitely plays louder and feels more responsive.

 

No real science to these observations.

 

 

Andy

[Alan Day]

I wonder if the old makers suffered problems of manufacture due to cold weather or evening drops in temperature,I doubt if they would have had heating overnight.I would suspect that it would not have taken them too long to find out what the problem was however.

It would appear that heat does not effect the reeds but cold does.

My thoughts on reeds going out of tune ,was recording in a cold office early one morning before the heating kicked in and hearing that certain notes sounded out of tune,but later checking them on my meter thay were spot on,but nobody has agreed with this yet, so it remains a mystery.

Al

[Robin Harrison]

One more piece of Canadian input; Colin Dipper is making an anglo for me,and on learning where it's going to live,says he'll make the reed pan with ply-wood ,not solid wood , to accomodate the varying humidities.

I've heard that European organ makers would do the same.

Robin

[Wrigglefingers]

My 1892 Edeophone gets very sullen and stroppy on misty moisty mornings in Bath but has usually returns to her usual good temper by the afternoon. It may just be my hearing though.....

 

Jill

[Henk van Aalten]

It may just be my hearing though.....

 

Sounds as if your age is about the same as your Edeophone .

 

....sullen and stroppy on misty moisty mornings.....

 

So it's time for the "alliteration blues"

[Brian Humphrey]

Hi all,

 

I'm the Pompano Beach, Florida guy. A few hurricanes and some (unrelated) travel took me away from the forum for awhile, and I'm coming back to some interesting topics!

 

Like Tampa, the Pompano Beach/Ft. Lauderdale area would be considered subtropical rather than tropical. It's a monsoon climate here, and winter and spring are the cooler, drier seasons. Air conditioning is ubquitous, so temperature and humidity for my concertinas may be more stable than many other places. (Robin, I can report that the melodeon you sold me has not been adversely affected by the climate change when it "relocated" from Toronto to Pompano Beach.)

 

When I lived in Minnesota, my first concertina, a Bastari, used to stick like crazy below about 50 degrees F. at barn dances, etc. I never had a sticking problem with my metal ended Lachenal. I got my Wheatstone after I moved to Florida, and I haven't experienced a pitch or intonation problem related to temperature or humidity.

 

It was helpful to see Jim's comments about reed frames. I have wondered if concertinas that stick when cold may have a different "fit" of the reeds in the reed frames, or if the metals used for the reeds and frames would make the difference, or if some leather (or plastic) valves may be less pliable at lower temperatures.

 

With all my musical instruments -- guitars, mandolins, button accordions, and concertinas, I've always noticed that they sound a little "off tune" to me in humid conditions -- maybe it's humidity, and maybe it's lower barometric pressure, or both - even when the stringed instruments are retuned with an electronic tuner. I have wondered whether humidity and/or barometric pressure may be affecting my eardrums, in turn affecting how I *perceive* pitch / intonation.

 

I have also wondered whether humidity changes could change the resonance of the wooden parts of my instruments, resulting in changes in harmonics. Does anybody have information on how the resonance of different kinds of wood may change when humidity changes?

 

On my day job as a speech pathologist I've picked up just enough knowledge of acoustics and psychoacoustics to be humble about what I don't know yet, but it seems to me that when we're sorting out the effects of temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, and air pressure on concertina sound, there may possibly be effects upon our ears as well as our instruments.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian