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How do people play the anglo ? :):)


Susanne

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Ok, so now I've started to play anglo concertina.

I can pick out simple tunes on single rows. And I'm having fun with playing harmonies using both sides at the same time.. ;) But, to play in the key of D or A, I suppose I need to use accidentials and use multiple rows, as I do on a 2 row button accordion. But what should I have as my "home" row? If I play in the key of D, should I be on the G row and jump to the accidential row? Or from the C row? Or do people place their fingers all over the place?

I'm going to dig out my DVD from somewhere down in a box one of these days as well... don't know how much of this stuff he talks about though.

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Ok, so now I've started to play anglo concertina.

I can pick out simple tunes on single rows. And I'm having fun with playing harmonies using both sides at the same time.. ;) But, to play in the key of D or A, I suppose I need to use accidentials and use multiple rows, as I do on a 2 row button accordion. But what should I have as my "home" row? If I play in the key of D, should I be on the G row and jump to the accidential row? Or from the C row? Or do people place their fingers all over the place?

I'm going to dig out my DVD from somewhere down in a box one of these days as well... don't know how much of this stuff he talks about though.

Anglo is perhaps the most fun, or baffling, of all the concertina systems. Not only do they come in various tunings, with different keyboard layouts (note your earlier post), but give the same instrument to two different players, and they will probably play it in two different fashions!

 

[Note: Alan Day and I tried the "same concertina, different musician" experiment a few weeks ago. See/hear the differences on YouTube!]

 

I guess that "style" will dictate much of what you do with the instrument. Since you are now based in Ireland, will you try to play in an Irish style?

 

Whether you play Irish, or English style, my feeling is that the "home" position is the same. Index, middle and ring fingers covering the B/C D/E F/G buttons of the right hand, and C/D E/F G/A buttons of the left hand middle row on a C/G instrument. How much you use the little fingers will depend on which style you adopt.

 

To play in D and A, you will use an "across the rows" technique, picking up the C# and G# notes, as necessary, from the "accidental" row.

 

Hope that's a starting point for you. If you choose the Irish style, there are enough experts on this site to offer you further help.

 

How is the playing of the English concertina coming along?

 

Regards,

Peter.

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Ok, so now I've started to play anglo concertina.

I can pick out simple tunes on single rows. And I'm having fun with playing harmonies using both sides at the same time.. ;) But, to play in the key of D or A, I suppose I need to use accidentials and use multiple rows, as I do on a 2 row button accordion. But what should I have as my "home" row? If I play in the key of D, should I be on the G row and jump to the accidential row? Or from the C row? Or do people place their fingers all over the place?

I'm going to dig out my DVD from somewhere down in a box one of these days as well... don't know how much of this stuff he talks about though.

Anglo is perhaps the most fun, or baffling, of all the concertina systems. Not only do they come in various tunings, with different keyboard layouts (note your earlier post), but give the same instrument to two different players, and they will probably play it in two different fashions!

 

[Note: Alan Day and I tried the "same concertina, different musician" experiment a few weeks ago. See/hear the differences on YouTube!]

 

I guess that "style" will dictate much of what you do with the instrument. Since you are now based in Ireland, will you try to play in an Irish style?

 

Whether you play Irish, or English style, my feeling is that the "home" position is the same. Index, middle and ring fingers covering the B/C D/E F/G buttons of the right hand, and C/D E/F G/A buttons of the left hand middle row on a C/G instrument. How much you use the little fingers will depend on which style you adopt.

 

To play in D and A, you will use an "across the rows" technique, picking up the C# and G# notes, as necessary, from the "accidental" row.

 

Hope that's a starting point for you. If you choose the Irish style, there are enough experts on this site to offer you further help.

 

How is the playing of the English concertina coming along?

 

Regards,

Peter.

 

 

Thanks Peter. I'm not sure if I'm going to play Irish style, I guess I'll try, but seriously I don't think I'm going to succeed very well with it:) I'm going to play all sorts of things, also Swedish trad music (I'm Swedish originally), hymns and whatever can be done. Down here where I live there are few concertina players around compared to for example county Clare where they more or less grow on trees. The only concertina player I know has played for 6 months and he can only give some very basic advice.

Also, I'll be moving back to Sweden in a couple of months where there are even less teachers (if any) but at least we have the SSI...

I guess I'll try to learn some Irish tunes but I'll probably develop my own style rather than the pure Irish style. If I find players or workshops I'll try to get as much advice and info as possible.

 

I've been sitting down here looking at the layout chart not knowing what to do with it! And I've played a Swedish mazurka on the C row.. Then I pulled out the DVD but it isn't much of a help, really, it's mostly going through tunes and how to hold the instrument. So, I guess my best option is to do as I did with the English, using the layout chart along with sheet music, and trying to find my way through a tune until I know the layout ok.

 

Should I base on the C row and from there look for other notes that I'll need to play in D? (that's what he does on the DVD) Is that a good way to go?

I agree that the anglo is a fun instrument. My English concertina playing has been quite absent lately, the thing is that my own English was old and not well looked after until I bought it, and the thumb strap screws broke and I couldn't fasten the straps. I didn't dare to do any work on it myself so I left it with Jim in Denmark, and he still has it:) He lent me one of his which was very kind of him but I miss mine, and I've bee busy with other stuff as well. I can still play a few polkas and a Swedish polska but haven't learned anything new really.... Then now I decided to start working on the squeeze boxes again since I really love that kind of instruments but I haven't had the patience to start practicing and learning. I'm used to strings so this kind of instrument is sooo different! I'm going to learn the button accordion, mainly Swedish and ITalian music, and now we happened to go to this music shop and I found this anglo concertina... :) I didn't plan to start on that again at all, seriously! But I'm having lots of fun with it, and my husband is learning the B/C layout on button accordion so we are fiddling around with our new instruments and will learn them together, which is nice.

The session we play at on Sunday nights is quite straightforward as well, simple tunes and they all play their accordions in the key of C... so I'll be able to join in quite soon there with the 'tina, I think.

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I'll be moving back to Sweden in a couple of months where there are even less teachers (if any) but at least we have the SSI...

 

When you come back to Sweden. Get in touch with me. I play Anglo. Well I say I play it, others might say otherwise. :rolleyes:

 

I have my version of Forsbergs Polket on my myspace you can listen there.

 

God jul och godt nyttår.

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I've been sitting down here looking at the layout chart not knowing what to do with it! And I've played a Swedish mazurka on the C row.. Then I pulled out the DVD but it isn't much of a help, really, it's mostly going through tunes and how to hold the instrument. So, I guess my best option is to do as I did with the English, using the layout chart along with sheet music, and trying to find my way through a tune until I know the layout ok.

 

Should I base on the C row and from there look for other notes that I'll need to play in D? (that's what he does on the DVD) Is that a good way to go?

I think what you are suggesting is a good starting point.

 

I've got quite a few Anglo recordings on my YouTube channel:

 

http://uk.youtube.com/user/pgtrimming

 

Many of these are on a C/G instrument, and might give you a few ideas.

 

Regards,

Peter.

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I'll be moving back to Sweden in a couple of months where there are even less teachers (if any) but at least we have the SSI...

 

When you come back to Sweden. Get in touch with me. I play Anglo. Well I say I play it, others might say otherwise. :rolleyes:

 

I have my version of Forsbergs Polket on my myspace you can listen there.

 

God jul och godt nyttår.

 

Will do! ;) Are you still in Dalsland?

 

Peter, I'll go to your You Tube soon. I've been sitting now going through some simple tunes in D using the chart and sheet music, and actually I see some slow progress! I now know where the C# and F# are and I can almost play Farewell to Nova Scotia SLOOOOWLY, which I also sing in the key of D, so that is perfect.

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Playing an Anglo is very tricky. I think that Noel Hill is a great teacher to have when you're learning.

I took some classes with him years ago and now - twenty years later - I'm still absorbing what he had to say.

I wrote something about his method here: Playing Across the Rows

It's for learning to play "Irish" style - or what I take that to mean.

It isn't easy to follow, but in time your efforts will be rewarded.

I'd be interested to hear what other players have to say about what I wrote.

If you have questions let me know. I'll be happy to help out if I can.

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Playing an Anglo is very tricky. I think that Noel Hill is a great teacher to have when you're learning.

I took some classes with him years ago and now - twenty years later - I'm still absorbing what he had to say.

I wrote something about his method here: Playing Across the Rows

It's for learning to play "Irish" style - or what I take that to mean.

It isn't easy to follow, but in time your efforts will be rewarded.

I'd be interested to hear what other players have to say about what I wrote.

If you have questions let me know. I'll be happy to help out if I can.

[/quote

 

David

That is a great help, thanks. When did you write it? I wish I'd had it when I began on Anglo in 2004 , after years on melodeon etc. , (although it might have confused me and put me off!) I was lucky in buying Mick Bramich's book even before I could afford an Anglo

 

I've often wondered why Noel hasn't published a tutor but this is the next best I've come across.

 

I entered a post the other day and got a comment that I was 'over- analysing' things. What I was saying was that I had the music in me, and the gracings, from years of singing, playing fiddle, flute etc etc but the Anglo is tricky as you rightly say and it requires a complete rethink. For a musician playing Morris etc on Anglo you fall into all the problems facing an up and down the rows player of what you call 'chopping'

 

Having said that, I do rate 'Old Style players' and I could get away with that approach as on a harmonica , but I want to put in more ornamentation and gain in speed.

 

I have been trying to work out my own system and have been coming towards what you write and your notes have helped enlighten me.

 

 

My point is that we have taken a straight forward mouth organ split into two sides and are now trying to do things more smoothly, just as 2 row melodeon (button accordeon) players and blues and cajun box players did in ringing the changes. No wonder some people are going to English concertina to get a smoother sound.

 

But I like the option of going into 'Old Style' and playing English tunes when it suits me, and it will always be my 'default' style. But the Cross Row style still allows chords, just more thought.

 

 

I get the impression that Paddy Murphy must have ploughed quite a lonely furrow as an innovator. I can't discern from recordings what Willy Mullally did technically although it sounds great.

 

 

Can you add a diagram to explain your 'Z' pattern?

 

 

Best of luck with this project

 

By the way I like to start on a push D on LHS C row so I can use push E on the C row. I've been strenghthening my little finger after I slashed the nerve a number of years ago and now it's pretty strong

 

Mike

Edited by michael sam wild
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Playing an Anglo is very tricky. I think that Noel Hill is a great teacher to have when you're learning.

I took some classes with him years ago and now - twenty years later - I'm still absorbing what he had to say.

I wrote something about his method here: Playing Across the Rows

It's for learning to play "Irish" style - or what I take that to mean.

It isn't easy to follow, but in time your efforts will be rewarded.

I'd be interested to hear what other players have to say about what I wrote.

If you have questions let me know. I'll be happy to help out if I can.

 

David, we've had a similar conversation before, but I want to comment on your "Playing Across the Rows" summary. Its nicely written and pretty clear. Thank you for making it available. However, I want to take some issue with your comments about "chopping." I am mainly a cross-row player but you have played many more years than I and I respect your experience. I'm just not sure I agree with all your comments. I've been to two of Noel Hill's workshops (in the Beginner and Intermediate class) in the last 4 years. Like you, I found them to be a wonderful experience. Neither time did Noel tell us anything about or against what you describe as chopping. In fact he had us learn several tunes with specific fingerings which included chopping. You are right in describing what you first learn from Noel as one's first choice for button selection. However, Noel himself gave us 2nd and 3rd choices for tunes that required them to be phrased well. But even when he gave us specific 2nd and 3rd choices it was not to avoid chopping. Most tunes we learned each year were played with 1st choice buttons including going from Push G (button 10) to Push D (button 15) on the left hand side. We were taught to embrace this, rather than avoid it. You wrote "chopping is the one thing that most accomplished players agree should never be a part of your technique." I grant that you are a more accomplished player than I, but in spite of being an ardent follower of this site over the last 3 years, speaking with other advanced players in person, and taking Noel's classes twice, yours is the only voice I recall coming across making this point with respect to anglo playing. So if there are others out there who do or don't follow your advice about chopping, I guess I'd like to hear from them. Again, Noel Hill is a pretty "accomplished player" and what we were taught in the classes I attended is sometimes quite different (with respect to chopping) from what you are recommending. I hope this doesn't have an argumentative tone as I don't mean it to. I'm just perplexed about the strength of your own opinion on this. Thanks for listening to this still very inexperienced player.

Edited by CaryK
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Playing an Anglo is very tricky. I think that Noel Hill is a great teacher to have when you're learning.

I took some classes with him years ago and now - twenty years later - I'm still absorbing what he had to say.

I wrote something about his method here: Playing Across the Rows

It's for learning to play "Irish" style - or what I take that to mean.

It isn't easy to follow, but in time your efforts will be rewarded.

I'd be interested to hear what other players have to say about what I wrote.

If you have questions let me know. I'll be happy to help out if I can.

David,

This is very interesting, thanks for posting that link to your writing. It is by far the clearest description of the basic technique of Irish style that I have seen. In particular I can see the logic in the the way the D scale is approached.

 

However, my main style of playing is what some are calling the 'English' style - on my 30-key C/G anglo I like to play melody mainly on the RH and chords and accompaniment on the LH side, although there is obviously some blurring of the use of the two sides here. I am fortunate in having had some tuition from Brian Peters who is, in my opinion, one of the very best exponents of the style - see here, for example:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=blZeRHg6RUM

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=QHFzCisnuT0&NR=1

 

I think Brian would describe the style as something like 'anglo-duet' i.e. using the two sides of the anglo independently, as a duet system player might.

I also like to play in 'other' keys on my anglo. C is obvious, of course, but I also like F, Dm, Am, Em and more recently have been experimenting with B-flat which to me sounds lovely. There are all those buttons on a 30-key anglo - I like to find out how they can be used. (Question: do good anglo players of Irish music use more than about 10 or 12 buttons?)

 

As an aside, I think the Wheatstone/Lachenal layout of the RH third row is more useful for the 'English' style than the Jeffries layout which probably favours the Irish style better.

 

But - to return to David's post and his link to the Irish style method - the Irish style is so wonderfully fluid and, I think, suited for other tunes as well as Irish (Welsh, for example). Having discussed the two styles with Brian Peters, his feeling is generally that the two styles are mutually incompatible, and while I acknowledge his brilliant technique and experience, I am also beginning to wonder whether they really are so incompatible. Surely it makes sense to learn to play our instruments to best of our abilities, learning how to get as much as possible from the potential of the instrument? That's what I would aspire to anyway. I want to be able to play a great Irish reel with all the ornaments, rolls, cuts etc. But I also want to be able to play ragtime and music hall songs, and Renaissance music, etc.... I want my anglo technique to become good enough to do this, without constraining myself in any particular 'style'. At 56, age is against me, although I'm doing my best. For Christmas, I wish Santa would give me the fingers the of an 18-year old again (and perhaps the brain cells too ;) )

 

So, my overall question is: who else here mixes the styles, blurs the styles, doesn't recognise the existence of styles, etc...? How hard (or easy) is it for you?

 

Thanks,

Steve

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... Surely it makes sense to learn to play our instruments to best of our abilities, learning how to get as much as possible from the potential of the instrument? That's what I would aspire to anyway. I want to be able to play a great Irish reel with all the ornaments, rolls, cuts etc. But I also want to be able to play ragtime and music hall songs, and Renaissance music, etc....

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

Oh for Heaven's sake, Steve, stop mucking about with that incomprehensible thing and buy a duet.

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... Surely it makes sense to learn to play our instruments to best of our abilities, learning how to get as much as possible from the potential of the instrument? That's what I would aspire to anyway. I want to be able to play a great Irish reel with all the ornaments, rolls, cuts etc. But I also want to be able to play ragtime and music hall songs, and Renaissance music, etc....

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

Oh for Heaven's sake, Steve, stop mucking about with that incomprehensible thing and buy a duet.

Anyone would think that you had one for sale! ;)

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Oh for Heaven's sake, Steve, stop mucking about with that incomprehensible thing and buy a duet.

You don't know how much I've been tempted. ;)

If I was younger, I might well have done; similarly I have often wondered about the possibility of getting my head round the logic of a continental button accordion, after over 25 years of playing melodeon.

But there is a well known expression to do with the incompatibility of old dogs and new tricks. So I'll guess I will stick to my anglo and my melodeons.

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Yes, thank you David for taking the time to write that out: I suppose two points jump out to me -

1) a lot of people are playing Wheatstone/ Lachenal layouts and here in scale of D, one is obliged to play B on the G row left hand where a C# follows or precedes the B (to avoid chopping)

 

2) I can't quite understand the predilection for playing d/e on the left hand for 'first choice'. For me, it has always seemed more natural to use the RH d/e on the lower part of a tune and more natural to use the LH d/e on the higher part where you are likely to be mixing those notes with a & b notes. That said, I vary it a bit but those are my first choices at present - maybe it comes from a background in B/C box playing?

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Mike: I've been writing this for about a year now. Refining it so it makes sense. And it only makes sense, really, for Irish playing, assuming you want to play that way. Old time Irish playing - like Chris Droney or Kitty Hayes - has it's own undeniable charm and I suppose I shouldn't call the cross-row style "Irish," in a definitive sense. But there is a clear difference between Noel, Tim Collins, Micheal O'Raghallaigh, Dympna O, etc, and the Droneys, et. al.

Here is the Z pattern of the first-choice notes that you asked about. First, imagine that the concertina is "spatch-cocked'- it is split in two and the sides laid out flat next to each other so that, in a line for the middle row, on the press, you have: C-E-G-C-E-F.

On the D row you'd have D-G-B-D-G-B.

Now stack them one above the other so you have

C-E-G-C-E-F

D-G-B-D-G-B.

Now put in the draw notes, in small letters:

Cd-Ef-Ga-bC-dE-fG

Df-Ga-Bc-De-fG-aB

 

Now underline the first choices to show the Z I referred to:

Cd-Ef-Ga-bC-dE-fG

Df-Ga-Bc-De-fG-aB

 

The glitch is the F# on the G row. Ignore that for the purpose of illustration. Aside from that F# you can see that the movement is basically a Z (granted you have to imagine the Z). Let me know if this is clear so that I can add it to the article. And thanks for asking.

------

Cary, accomplished players have chimed in on other threads, agreeing with me that avoidance of chopping is one of their hard and fast rules. I do everything I can to avoid chopping. Azalin, for instance, agrees with me. I asked Noel about this and he agreed with me about chopping. I can't imagine why he would teach a tune where you'd go from #10 to #15 as the proper technique. Does it seem faster and more fluid for you to chop from the (10) G to the (15) D than to go from the (10) G to the (23) D? I have asked many players about this. They have all agreed with me. We can't both be right. That said, I find myself unable to break the habit of sliding my finger off C# (16) to B (21), on the draw.

N.B. The reference here is Wally's chart at http://www.carrollconcertinas.com/images/C...uttonConfig.jpg

------

Steve- age is irrelevant. Kitty Hayes proved that. I have friends who have started playing in their mid and late sixties and they are enjoying the process very much. I.F. Stone learned Greek when he was 70 years old. I am older than you are and I am learning Gaelic. Sure we all wish we'd started decades ago. But you start when you can and don't look back. Don't compare. It's about the process, which is never-ending, not the conclusion. You're never "There."

I use many more than the ten or twelve buttons as I keep playing and as my technique develops. There are those lovely low notes below D(8). And I am starting to use the 3rd. row G (18) draw on the rt hand. It makes the F#-G-A (draw) triplet much more fluid.

I agree that for Irish style - the only music I know - the Jeffries layout is easier than the Wheatstone. I personally don't know any player who is equally fluid and accomplished in both English style and Irish style. It has as much to do with [hearing the] phrasing as with technique. Not that there isn't anybody- I just never heard of them and don't know any - or know of any - personally.

Brian Peters is a fabulous player. But with all respect, he wouldn't fit into the session at our local - except for when somebody said, "Play one of your own now, " and then we'd all be transfixed. But aside from that, what would he do when we started to play Devaney's Goat?

--------

tombilly - point #1, yes, I agree. You would have to use the B press on a Wheatstone system. Lately I find myself using the B(14) press following a rt hand 2nd finger G(26) . It's either that or go to the middle row high G(23) (which I am not as comfortable with) if I am to use the middle-row B draw (21), which is how I suppose Noel would do it.

Re #2: The left hand d/e just sounds better than the right hand e/d. On the left hand the reeds don't fall under the hand as they do on the right hand- and I assume this is the reason Noel chooses the left hand d/e: for sound and response. But there are many times I'll use the right hand e/d. I also try to use the left hand D press as a vent, to avoid too many draws in a row and to give the tune lift, or punch. I also find it easier to chord with the D (12) - especially on my Carroll Bb/F with mean tuning - using #15 as the preferred button.

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I agree that for Irish style - the only music I know - the Jeffries layout is easier than the Wheatstone. I personally don't know any player who is equally fluid and accomplished in both English style and Irish style. It has as much to do with [hearing the] phrasing as with technique. Not that there isn't anybody- I just never heard of them and don't know any - or know of any - personally.

Brian Peters is a fabulous player. But with all respect, he wouldn't fit into the session at our local - except for when somebody said, "Play one of your own now, " and then we'd all be transfixed. But aside from that, what would he do when we started to play Devaney's Goat?

I think this is true, David.

 

When I went to the Willie Clancy week back in 1991, I was in the class with people who could barely work out a scale. The late Tony Crehan took my class, and he had heard me play for Noel Hill, as all first-timers had to. Tony said "We'll have problems changing your lovely style". He knew, as I knew, that to try and change from one style to another is impossible in a week. It might be possible in months, or years, given the right desire and application.

 

However, I was there to listen to Irish players playing Irish music, in a traditional style, in Ireland. So; I was not disappointed. I understand how the Irish style works, even if I can't really do more than a basic demonstration of it myself.

 

The next time (and, in fact, the last time) that I met Noel Hill was Concertinas at Witney 1995, where we were both tutors on the Anglo. Needless to say his Irish Anglo class had rather more students than my English Anglo class!

 

Regards,

Peter.

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Peter, if I lived in England I would play English style, period! Morris dances, and all those old bumpety-bump tunes. They are lovely tunes, full of life and joy. I can't imagine playing them now. Who would I play them with?

 

Jody Kruskal - a great teacher - tried to teach me basic accompaniment and I couldn't even handle that. What would I do with it? I love the chords that the great English players do so with what seems so little effort. Chording for the Irish tunes seems to be a very different thing.

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