Bastari buttons clean up

[twisper]

So close but so far. I got almost all of them lined up and headed towards their respective holes when G#/Bb fell. I buttoned it up anyway out of sheer exasperation. I wish I had the other style buttons that had the bottoms filled in. Oh well, F and A aren't what they are cracked up to be....

I notice also the buttons are uneven and some tend to go crooked. I assume that has something to do with the length of the cut tubing. I will have to revisit the tubing.

Mark

 

 

I remember that Bob Tedrow used to make parts to vastly improve (he called it 'hot rodding') the button action on these. You might send him an email and see if he still offers this service or can provide parts....maybe he has a bucketful of old buttons that he removed to install his improved ones.....worth a try, and he's quite an amiable chap. Good luck with the project!

[Wolf Molkentin]

Perhaps you'll find this useful...

[mthatcher61]

Sorry Blue Eyed Sailor. The link doesnt work for me. Is it a link to a place with replacement buttons? I would love to find a cheap full set of the buttons with the closed bottoms. Or a trick to get them to stay in place long enough for me to get the cover on would be nice.

 

FWIW the reeds all seem to be in tune. It doesnt sound too bad.

[Anglogeezer]

Hi Mark,

I can't think of a solution to your problem that uses the buttons you have.

 

You could contact Button Box to see if they have spares.

 

I tried to attatch some pictures of my "STAGI" showing the buttons in position & a button alone BUT the files are too big!!

(Thinks, must see if there's a way to make them smaller - mmmmm)

So instead I've placed them on FLICKR :-

Levers

 

regards

Jake

[Theo]

 

I remember that Bob Tedrow used to make parts to vastly improve (he called it 'hot rodding') the button action on these.

 

If bob kept the buttons he removed from Stagis, he must have 100s of them! Well worth asking if he still has them.

[Wolf Molkentin]

Sorry Blue Eyed Sailor. The link doesnt work for me. Is it a link to a place with replacement buttons?

No, it should take you to that notorious "hot rodding" site (telling you how to replace those sticky buttons entirely with something way better...).

 

Guess you'll just have to be patient (following that link as well as dealing with your Bastari bastard)...

[mthatcher61]

I finally got to it Blue Eyed Sailor. I can see how that would definitely hot rod the Stagi, but I can also see why Bob doesnt do it any more. Thats a lot of time and effort constructing those buttons. I wonder how much one of those actually was improved.

[mthatcher61]

Just in case anybody has tried the same thing and come across buttons like mine, I finally had a Eureka moment and the clouds parted and I was able to easioly take off the tops line up the buttons straddling their respective locations on the levers and replace the tops. All one has to do is:

 

take 2" packing tape, any kind will do, and before you take the tops off put the tape over the buttons.

When the top is removed the buttons come with it.

When you want to put the top and buttons back on place the buttons back through the holes of the top plates so they are held in place by the tape again.

Reposition the top plate back over the concertina and lightly and gently reseat the buttons over their respective levers. Voila, ready to screw the top back on.

Remove the tape.

 

I wish I would have thought of this back when I first started fixing this.

[Laurence]

Surgical tubing works really good too, in fact I like it even better. It's really springy, spongy, sticky (doesn't slide up and down) and has great memory that lasts forever--ie, the smaller thicker stuff. Hard to cut stright with scissors tho--might need a really sharp knife, or hair cutting scissors with slight zigged edges that don't slip. Getting them cut stright is the secret to the buttons standing staying straight. Bi-Mart, or just about any of the big box stores, have lots of different sizes in stock too. Look in the fishing pole and tackle deptartment. Mine has lasted for well over 20 years and gets played a lot! Still plays as good today as the day I replaced those old black rubber worn out sleeves.

[Don Taylor]

Reviving this topic ....

 

I recently bought a used Stagi W-15LN which has a similar, but not the same, mechanism as described above. I will take some photos next time I take it apart.

 

My issue is that the G row buttons are a little shorter than the other row buttons. Looking at the mechanism, this looks to be by design, or at least by construction, because there does not appear to be any appreciable wear.

 

I have tried the rubber tubing trick mentioned above, but that really makes no appreciable difference to the height of these buttons.

 

The problem is that I have to depress the G row buttons flat to the face of the end in order to get them to sound properly. Even with my nails cut very short, it is not very comfortable.

 

I think that I could replace each of the plastic buttons on the G row with new buttons that are a little longer than the existing ones. I am thinking of getting some acetal (delrin) round bar stock and cutting some new buttons. I would have to round off the ends and drill a small hole in the bottom of each new button to glue a leg in to it. Fiddly, but nowhere near as fiddly as the process that Bob Tedrow followed in the link above.

 

The trouble is that I am a bit concerned about making a non-reversible mistake. I have not yet managed to get one of the existing buttons off its leg which is what I need to do to replace it with a new one. I have not really tried very hard yet. I know that I could cut an existing button away with a Dremel tool, but I would rather get the buttons off in one piece if I can so that I can put them back again if my idea does not work out.

 

Finally, my question: Has anybody removed one of these plastic buttons from its leg, and if so do you have any tips for the wary?

 

Thanks,

 

Don.

 

 

[malcolmbebb]

Surgical tubing works really good too,

I can find several suppliers of latex tubing, which I think is what they call surgical tubing. Ebay throws up quite a few. Do you recall what size you used? I can find 1/8 ID, 3/16 OD fairly easily.

 

The boxes I have seen look rather like bodge jobs. Both have metal button caps. I suspect that they use the same legs, but the legs go deeper into the metal caps (plated brass) so they have split them and fitted them through holes in the levers. The seem to be held in with glue, looks like hot melt.

The bottom of the legs bear in the holes, nothing bears on the top of the arm.

 

The lever holes are very poorly hand drilled, each lever having several to accommodate the curve of the button row. I think they were intended to have the button bases fit over them, as described above, and held with tube, but have been modified to suit the metal buttons.

 

 

This box is also metal ended. Getting the buttons in is fairly easy, by holding it all upside down, but I think this is also part of the problem. Both this and the other I recently looked at, also metal ended, had a kind of bushing board made of thick felt. The button diameter is 5mm and the holes 6mm, so assuming that the bushing holes were originally the correct size, they have rounded out to the hole size allowing the buttons to lean at all sorts of angles.

[Don Taylor]

Here is a picture of my Stagi action and how the buttons work:

 

 

I have taken one button out to show its leg configuration and the use of high quality washers as spacers. The interesting thing, I think, is that the bottom of the leg fits (through two washers) into a hole in the piece of plywood covered in red felt. It is this 'leg in the hole' technique that keeps the buttons mostly vertical - unlike other Stagi action boards and buttons where the button rely upon rubber tubing and magic to keep them vertical. It seems to work ok. Other than that, the action looks to be just as crude as other Stagi actions.

 

My problem is that the G row buttons are a bit short:

 

 

 

I am going to have a go at making some new, longer buttons.

 

I have ordered some 1/4" white delrin round bar off eBay, but the existing buttons are just a shade smaller than 1/4". They are 6 mm which is about .24". But who knows how accurately the delrin round bar will be milled/extruded anyway so maybe it will fit or maybe I am going have to buy a reamer too.

 

Why bother? Well, I really like the sound of this Stagi, especially for chords. I bought it with a mind to practice fettling upon it, but it sounds quite sweet - to me anyway. Even our cat does not mind it so much - may be the lack of high pitch overtones?

 

Don.

[malcolmbebb]

That is light years ahead of the one I have. Simpler and looks a lot more robust.

 

I would suggest that the metal piece is probably symmetrical. I would be thinking n terms of putting it in a fridge, or maybe freezer, for a short while - or maybe just outdoors if the climate permits - then trying to turn the knob on the shaft.

 

If that doesn't work - not knowing which material expands most - maybe hot water.

Edited November 17, 2013 by malcolmbebb

[Don Taylor]

Progress report.

 

I tried sleeving some of the buttons with neoprene tubing as per George's recommendation but, on this type of box anyway, it does not seem to be necessary and does make the buttons a lot harder to push. Probably because the tubing offers more resistance at the contact point than does metal to metal. So I took the sleeves off except for the one on the air button which I felt needed a bit more resistance so that it could be held in a partially open position.

 

I did receive some acetal/Delrin round bar with which I planned to make some new, taller buttons for the G row. As expected, it was a little bigger than than the existing button material (metric vs. imperial measurements I suspect) and it will not go through some of the holes in the ends. I will need to ream the holes out just a touch. Any recommendations on a reamer?

 

Machining new buttons out of the acetal proved to be pretty easy just using a drill press, a junior hacksaw and some sandpaper.

 

Getting the old buttons off their metal legs without destroying the old buttons is still a problem. I am now thinking that maybe I need to make new legs as well as new buttons, or maybe buy another junker Stagi and use the legs from that.

 

In the meantime, I have added a third spacer washer on the G row buttons so that they do not sink so low into the face of the ends when they are pressed. I can now use the G row without trimming my finger nails right down so that is a big improvement. See:

 

This picture also shows some of the neoprene tubing in place which I have since removed.

 

These are the legs with button attached:

It looks as if Stagi simply used strips of aluminium wire, about 8 or 9 gauge, and crushed the centre flat before punching a hole in it for the arm. I am trying to source some wire but have not had much luck so far unless I want to buy 50 feet or more!

 

 

[xgx]

Progress report.

(...)

I did receive some acetal/Delrin round bar (...) As expected, it was a little bigger than than the existing button material (metric vs. imperial measurements I suspect) and it will not go through some of the holes in the ends. I will need to ream the holes out just a touch. Any recommendations on a reamer?

 

Rather than reaming the existing holes could you not get someone from your local woodturning group to turn down the rod to fit? If they have a hollow headstock spindle it should only take minutes (for someone who knows what they're doing ;-) .. to turn down and part off the buttons. (as per the Tedrow hotrod method using brass)

Edited December 11, 2013 by xgx

[MatthewVanitas]

Huh, that extension at bottom that slides into a hole is way different than the 8 or so Stagi/Bastari/Silvagni boxes I've worked on. Seems like it would stabilise the key a lot more.

 

The ones I've had have all uniformly been the little sheet metal "see-saw" types, with a short shaft made of flat metal with a slot punched in it. Then we had one poster once who had similar, except his slot was open at the bottom, so the rubber was key to keeping the key astride the lever at all.

 

Just for the sake of recording what's worked for me, I bought the following on eBay and re-sleeved a half-dozen concertinas: "Du-Bro Purple 3/32"ID Silicone Nitro Fuel Line"

 

In my limited experience, I found that just putting the vinyl on left the buttons kind of stiff, but when I tried notching the vinyl slightly where it meets the levers, they stayed stable but got way smoother. I haven't seen anyone else mention that method, so I don't know if my tubing or lever was slightly different, or if I erred in tubelet length in some way that made the notches ameliorate that (though I messed around with length for a while). Concur that this tubing is hard to cut smoothly even with small sharp scissors, and a scalpel or razor would be far cleaner.

 

I have cool close-up hi-res photos of what the keys look like with old and new rubber; could folks put those to good use in updating the How-To article since the current photos are rather small and blurry?

[Daniel Hersh]

I think that an updated version of those instructions would be a fine idea, both for the improved photos and to update info on tubing that's now available as opposed to the obsolete tubing recommended in the old instructions. Your best bet might be to post it as a new topic in this forum, then to ask Ken and Paul to "pin" the topic.

 

Huh, that extension at bottom that slides into a hole is way different than the 8 or so Stagi/Bastari/Silvagni boxes I've worked on. Seems like it would stabilise the key a lot more.

 

The ones I've had have all uniformly been the little sheet metal "see-saw" types, with a short shaft made of flat metal with a slot punched in it. Then we had one poster once who had similar, except his slot was open at the bottom, so the rubber was key to keeping the key astride the lever at all.

 

Just for the sake of recording what's worked for me, I bought the following on eBay and re-sleeved a half-dozen concertinas: "Du-Bro Purple 3/32"ID Silicone Nitro Fuel Line"

 

In my limited experience, I found that just putting the vinyl on left the buttons kind of stiff, but when I tried notching the vinyl slightly where it meets the levers, they stayed stable but got way smoother. I haven't seen anyone else mention that method, so I don't know if my tubing or lever was slightly different, or if I erred in tubelet length in some way that made the notches ameliorate that (though I messed around with length for a while). Concur that this tubing is hard to cut smoothly even with small sharp scissors, and a scalpel or razor would be far cleaner.

 

I have cool close-up hi-res photos of what the keys look like with old and new rubber; could folks put those to good use in updating the How-To article since the current photos are rather small and blurry?

[MatthewVanitas]

Not to elbow into others' work, but I suggest we try "folding" some new content into the existing non-forum Cnet article. I would venture there are a goodly number of folks who never enter these forums, and thus would never see a updated thread, but just based on Google hits end up using the article Making a Bastari/Stagi Playable.

 

If I did a cleanup edit on the existing article, incorporated in any updates on materials, new pics, etc, plus any other updates folks here can suggest, and ensure the intro gives full credit to Ken and Geo for originating the article, would that be satisfactory? That way we'd have the most updated info at the most centralized page for how to tidy up a mid-century Italian hybrid box.

Edited January 3, 2014 by MatthewVanitas