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Sizes And Weights Of Different Model Concertinas


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Wow! I think you guys really said it good. This explains a lot about why smaller instruments generally are more responsive everythung being equal. I guess it's just a matter of getting used to the instrument you are playing. Reed pan design, dampening affect and resonance... that could be an interesting topic!

 

I don't think I can add more or have to but I like to think in terms of extremes to make things easier to visualize. In this case, the accordion versus the concertina. When pressing both wirh equal pressure, the larger accordion would have less internal pressure. PSI (pounds per square inch)... therefore square inches high, pounds low), with the exact opposite in the smaller concertina (small sq inches, high pressure)... so the smaller the instrument, the higher the internal pressure.

 

It's interesting... I was reading a few weeks ago about the difference between accordion and concertina reeds... As I recall, accordion reeds have straight walled slots where the tongue vibrates while concertinas have tapered slots. This affects the tone, reaction time of the reeds, etc. The point here is that accordions reeds are specifically designed to work under low pressure and to reduce air consumption which is a big concern when there is multiple reeds per note.

 

Comparing two concertinas, both with concertina reeds, the larger concertina would have less internal pressure so would have to be squeezed harder in order for the reed to speak the same. I have no experience wether this is a good thing or not but imagine it would limit the dynamic range. There obviously must be a much different feel.

 

I'm fairly new to the concertinas but from playing other instruments including the Irish whistle for years I learnt how to listen to and control the resonance of the notes. By here's a sweetly spot where the notes ring out. With a concertina, I can feel it and hear it when the reeds are really speaking. They just ring like a bell. I love this tone. For the same reason I love adding in those low harmony notes toy arrangements and feeling the notes swell and blossom as I'm playing. This is tricky compromise sometimes though because it takes a different feel (pressure I imagine) to make the larger bass reeds ring out than the the smaller melody reeds. I'm still learning how to control the concertina bellows. It sure is fun learning! I think this is another reasons I especially like listening to arrangements using the tenor-treble.

 

In my limited experience it seems the 48K treble to be the best size based on this feel of the reeds at the extreme ends. Of course I'm basing this on my entry level instrument. The question is would I have the same feel with a tenor-treble. What does a baritone feel like when playing? I really want those few extra lower notes a tenor-treble offers and would imagine the slightly larger instrument is designed physically larger for more reasons than to fit in more reeds. Is the higher register compromised though?

 

I was also reading about how the larger Boyd's were designed to be the same size as the trebles. It would seem this would be a compromise on the tone but the Boyds seem to be highly regarded.

 

And on and on and on... All interesting stuff... a lot goes into the design of these wonderful little boxes we all love so much!

Edited by 4to5to6
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I don't know that it would be a comprise on tone for the larger boyds to be treble-size. I read on a thread here that I now can't recall the name or subject of, that for reasons of concertina-related acoustic physics, the smaller the concertina, the louder/more powerful it would be. it would be fun to understand his better.

 

 

 

 

regarding baritones, I have no experience with baritone concertina reeds, but I was told by one of the best (and nicest) restorers/repairers in the biz, that they do not play fast.

 

I acquired an accordion-reeded morse Geordie tenor EC about two years ago and took up learning to play EC in earnest. morse had recently begun offering an upgrade option at a reasonable price to so-called "hand-type" reeds, a premium grade of accordion reeds known in the biz as "tipo a mano," aka "TAM," aka "hand-finished" reeds. I went for these because of their brighter sound and somewhat faster response. I have recently been messing around with the low end, playing irish tunes that do not go below low C an octave low on my Tenor, to see how these reeds would sound on a baritone, because I like the sound of the middle/low TAM accordion reeds in this concertina so much i'm thinking of getting a Bari with the TAM upgrade.

 

and these reeds perform surprisingly quickly. the conventional wisdom has always been, Baris may sound great, but you can't really play them to session speed. well....these reeds might not be optimal for that frenetic, hyped-up, Lunasa/Danu/Dervish sound that to some is the ultimate be-all-and-end-all, but for those of us who do NOT consider that sound the ultimate, these reeds will do a quite brisk and lively, but not hyper-frenetic, traditional dance speed very nicely. there was a thread here about Button Box's recently-unveiled Baritone Anglo, which very sensibly has these TAM reeds stock, not as an option add-on. and a commenter was glowing there too about how well they responded and sounded.

 

I have expressed disappointment more than once that this instrument is not louder, and is significantly less loud than my Dipper County Clare anglo. I still feel this, and still feel there should be no reason that engineering solutions could not be found to make accordion-reeded concertinas bark out as loudly as concertina-reeded instruments, and to give ECs as loud and "fat" a tone (for those that want such) a Anglos can have.

 

but to be fair, I have to give the other side, which is that the TAM reeds in the Morse Geordie Tenor are just about as loud, and perhaps a bit squawkier in a bright, concertina-ish way, than the single-reed setting on my two-voice Hohner Nova II 60A chromatic button accordion, which is three times the weight and four times he size, of the concertina. so what do we make of that?

Edited by ceemonster
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Thanks Ceemonster.

 

Lots to chew on. Give me a day or two.

 

I'll search myself but if you come across the thread on Boyd acoustics / small concertinas being louder, let me know please.

 

I will read up on the TAM reeds. Very interesting. Down the road, but is there a English system baritone that uses TAM reeds?

 

Many thanks!

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I was also reading about how the larger Boyd's were designed to be the same size as the trebles. It would seem this would be a compromise on the tone but the Boyds seem to be highly regarded.

 

 

Most Boyd Wheatstones are 56 key treble - same size as a 48 key and extended upwards. I have seen one 48 key Boyd Wheatstone but never a larger one. They may exist but they are rare, and even typical Boyd Wheatstones are scarce.

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The "Boyds", both Lachenal and Wheatstone, have no special design to them to my knowledge, just (mostly) the B (or HB?) woven into the pattern of the (metal) fretwork, and - reportedly - the best of reeds and other components from the producer's stock resp.

makers...

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Yes, I remember asking Chris Algar about Boyds once and he said that he has never seen a Boyd Aeola but they could exist. The Boyds were on there way by the time the Aeolas arrived. I've always wondered if there were tenor-treble Boyds???

 

When I was researching Boyds I too mostly came across extended trebles that are the same size as the regular trebles. I just about bought a 48K Boyd once but thankfully it didn't work out as I'm now convinced I need a tenor-treble. They may be a bit better due to better reeds and select craftsmen building them but after a 100 years of use and possibly abuse, a pitch change to A440 and a few tunings after that, there is no guarantee of any difference at all. I agree. For example, a Lachenal Boyd is just a New Model with a custom end plate.

 

I could use a few measurements, serials, etc of specifically some different year 48K treble Aeolas if anyone has the time to measure theirs up.

 

Thanks, John

Edited by 4to5to6
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The "Boyds", both Lachenal and Wheatstone, have no special design to them to my knowledge, just (mostly) the B (or HB?) woven into the pattern of the (metal) fretwork, and - reportedly - the best of reeds and other components from the producer's stock resp.

makers...

 

Usuall the fretwork includes "H Boyd"

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...a Lachenal Boyd is just a New Model with a custom end plate.

 

Boyds also had "bowing valves", lever-type air valves on each end, though with small holes for the air. I understand that they were intended to be used for controlling the amount of air ("bleeding"?) while playing, not to allow quick but quiet closing of the instrument.

 

I'm sure I've seen both Aeolas and Edeophones with lever-type air valves that had places for them in the fretwork on both ends, but I don't beleive I've ever seen an A or E where both levers were installed, much less one with "H Boyd" worked into the fretwork.

 

You might want to read through this thread from 2009.

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I've read the bowing valve patent... as I recall, comparisons were made to using the valves and bellows like bowing a violin. They are different than air valves as on side works on draw and the other side on push... most are converted to act like regular air valves as I guess they never really worked. I've always wanted to try one out since first hearing about them. David Robertson has an ET Boyd in his restoration queue right now and had my name on it for a few days realized I have no use for extended treble notes and now I know I need the lower notes instead. I think David gave me the size and weight and will add it to the list early next week.

Edited by 4to5to6
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"Bowing valves" - regardless of their initial or altered functionality, or these levers in general - can cause problems as they are (at least sometimes, I found this issue on a very nice Aeola) in the way of the thumb if fully sticking (as I'm finding it fitting) in the strap. Another thing to be aware of when trying out an instrument..

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[[is there an English system baritone that uses TAM reeds?]]

 

yes. I am thinking of ordering one. morse makes a 37b EC called the Albion, 37 rather than 48 because it does not have that super-high octave that is on a full treble. one can order a TAM upgrade for it. the Albion comes in baritone, same 37 notes, just an octave lower. one can order that with TAM as well.

 

 

morse also make a slightly larger 45b baritone called the Geordie. one can order that with TAM reeds.

 

AC norman concertinas in the UK offers a baritone EC. I know less about that model and do not know how many buttons it has, but he probably uses TAM reeds stock. if not, i'm sure one could have them if requested. Harry Geuns in Belgium offers a full-48 baritone accordion-reeded EC. I would bet those reeds are TAM, but you'd have to confirm that.

 

in a tenor, i'm fine with a 45 rather than a 48 because I don't need super-high notes. however, in a baritone, if I went higher than the37 offered in the albion model, i'd rather have a full 48 than the 45 offered in the Geordie bari, which is missing high b-flat, high b, and high C, seems silly to pop for the notes up to high A and not get those three. So, I am toying with the idea of ordering the 37-button Morse Albion baritone for now. with TAM reeds. the 37-button goes from low "g," a bass low g, up to what would be high C on a treble, i.e., the C above middle C. I do think a full 48 would be great since on a bari 48 one would actually use those notes rather than having a whole octave of useless superhigh notes like on a treble. But the Morse Albion 37 might be fun with the TAM reeds. Because it is 37, the Morse baritone Albion is the same size/dimensions as the treble Albion, which might make for a sprightly bari with the TAM reeds. this is all speculative. I've just noticed that I really like the mid-range and low-range notes on my TAM-reeded Geordie Tenor EC.

 

then there is currently the interesting consideration that the dollar has reached near-parity with the euro. harry geuns' accordion-reeded bari 48, which has been out of the question for this u.s. shopper for years, is looking intriguing too.

Edited by ceemonster
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A summary. Did I miss anything?

I've highlighted the missing models in bold. Please provide info if you own one of these instruments. pm me if you want to remain anonymous.

 

- No. 17. treble Aeola

6-1/2in, 3lb-6oz (165mm, 1540gm)

 

- No. 19. tenor-treble Aeola

7-1/4in, 3lb-7oz / 3Lb-10oz / 3lb-13oz (184mm, 1559gm/1644gm/1730gm)

 

- No. 22. treble metal end

 

 

- No. 11a. tenor-treble metal end

6-1/4in, 2 lb-15oz (159mm, 1318 grams)

 

- No. 6. treble raised ebony end

 

 

- No. 11. tenor-treble raised ebony end

 

 

- No. 14 56K Baritone-Treble

8in (203mm)

 

- 64k Baritone-Treble

8-3/4in, 4lbs-6oz (222mm, 1969gm)

 

- No. 4a 48k treble

6-1/4", 2lb-11oz (159mm, 1221gm)

 

- Lachenal Boyd New Model 48K

 

- Lachenal Boyd New Model 56K

163mm AF, or a tad over 6-3/8

 

- Lachenal RE BB MR treble

6-1/4in., 2lb-10oz) (159mm, 1180gm)

 

 

Other considerations affecting feel/weight:

- Smaller instruments (of the same quality) are usually louder, react faster and have a greater dynamic range.

- Availability (tenors are rare)

- has it been recently serviced/tuned?

- fast response can make a larger instrument feel smaller

- Every instrument should be assessed individually

- position of thumb and finger rests make a big difference

- Aeolas have better dynamic range, model 21& 22 bark out better

- 48 key tenor-Aeolas react considerably better than 56 and 64 key TTs, but run out of air faster.

- Aeolas come from ultra quiet pin-hole to screeming 48 key metal-ended treble - and anything in between, depending on end-material, fretwork-design, reed-length and period.

- consider TAM reeds - tipo a mano, aka "hand-finished" reeds

- Boyd bowing valves can get in the way

Edited by 4to5to6
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Still missing:

 

No. 22 treble - metal ends

No. 6 treble - raised ebony ends

No. 11 tenor-treble - raised ebony ends

No, 14 baritone - 56K (have 8in./203mm) no weight

Lachenal New Model Boyd treble - 48K (presume 6-1/4)

 

Please look over list at end, Have I missed anything?

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Still missing:

 

No. 22 treble - metal ends

No. 6 treble - raised ebony ends

No. 11 tenor-treble - raised ebony ends

No, 14 baritone - 56K (have 8in./203mm) no weight

Lachenal New Model Boyd treble - 48K (presume 6-1/4)

 

Please look over list at end, Have I missed anything?

Are you a Bean Counter ?

 

I've already given you weights of 22 ME and BT 56 !

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I'm not surprised. Thread is getting too cluttered. It took me over an hour to try to put together what I did. I'll dig through it all again tomorrow. After 11PM my time and I'm off to bed.

 

What's a bean counter? An accountant maybe? Obviously not with all my typos, errors and omissions! I'm a musician, can't you tell? Don't answer that!!!

 

I've nearly made my decision and just about abandoned this but thought I had better finish it off at least the best I can in hopes it can help someone else in the future. I'm either going with a tenor-treble if I can find a decent one or will possibly get a new one built or else I will just stay with a 48K treble for the responsiveness and light weight and then get a secound instrument, probably a baritone or a baritone-treble, whatever overlaps the best.

 

Actually... Why not? I'm also going to add in the note ranges as well:

C4 is middle C

Treble - G3 to C7

Tenor-Treble - C3 to C7

etc.

 

I find this stuff interesting and very helpful! I can't thank everyone enough for all the input.

 

Let's add some more Lachenal's to the list: New Model, Edeophone, Paragon, Inimitable, Excelsior, etc. please.

 

John

Edited by 4to5to6
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Let's add some more Lachenal's to the list: New Model, Edeophone, Paragon, Inimitable, Excelsior, etc. please.

My Lachenal Excelsior 58748 treble is 2lb 11.6oz (1238g) and 6 1/4" (16cm) across the flats.

My Wheatstone Aeola 34801 treble is 2lb 5.8oz (1073g)and 6 1/2" (16.5cm) across flats.

My George Case treble 3087 (with double reed chambers) is 2lb 15.8oz (1355g) and 6 1/4" (16cm) across the flats.

My George Case baritone (unnumbered) is 4lb 8.9oz (2067g) and 7.9" (20cm) across the flats.

 

Regards,

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a BEAN COUNTER can be somebody in the accounting/financial comptrolling-ish fields.

 

however, this term has also taken on a BROADER sense, to mean someone who focuses on toting up the bottom line at the expense of art and meaning. OR, someone who may not be toting in a granular sense, but who is an MBA, greedy, Wall Street, let's make-a-killing type, at the expense of art and meaning. (the use of the term on this thread was obviously NOT read by me to be meant in this broader sense.)

 

thus, the term's latter day employment is often in this broader sense:

 

"Filmmaking has been RUINED by takeover of the studios and distributors by MBA-WIELDING BEAN-COUNTERS who think they should be making aesthetic decisions, but have the story-telling and directorial capacity of HAMBURGER MEAT........."

 

 

 

"Journalism has been RUINED by the dissolution of the wall between the business and editorial sides, and MEDDLING BY BEAN-COUNTERS with no appreciation of the values of free speech and no commitment to the crucial investment in investigative truth-seeking required in order to maintain a democratic society... . . . "

Edited by ceemonster
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