Too Much Choice

[tombilly]

Why Twinkle or Barney or Mary Had a Little Lamb or Hot Cross Buns etc??? Because everyone knows them from childhood - that's the point of ear learning where the notes are. I have a 5 yr old at the moment and he is getting to manage the above on his wee G whistle.

 

But about the whole playing along the rows or cross row thing. In relation to Irish trad., the concertina is very much associated with Clare music. And they like(d) to play on 'odd' keys like C and F -presumably because if you take tunes in ITM that would normally be played in G or D etc. and play them just along the C row, you end up in those sort of keys. Does not Chris Droney play largely along the rows? So maybe that's the way that the concertina was 'traditionally' played in Ireland. Playing along the rows is 'not wrong'.

 

The 'modern' cross row style surely came about as concertina players wanted to play in the the more common session keys that these tunes were being played in. And Noel Hill led the way largely there I think. I also think there are different approaches to Noel's 'method'.

[LDT]

These two systems reflect two philosophies for two clienteles: .... aimed at the emerging proletarian amateur musician who could not afford tuition.

Sounds like I chose the right one.

 

There are many events that take place through the year - a session at the George in London (I think Alan Day can point you in the right direction) wouldn't be too far or too expensive for you, I think. Or travel to spend a couple of days in Yorkshire to coincide with a session at the Royal in Dungworth (Mark Davies is your man to contact for this). Or you could choose to splash out a little more and go to a weekend-long event, check out the ICA website or the calendar here on c.net for these (yes, I run one here on Arran and you'd be most welcome!!).

I've been trying to find stuff...but there seems to be none in my immeditate area....most involve me having to travel long distances (not easy without a car) in the evening (not safe for a young lady on her own) so I've been trying to find ways of combing it with holidays. So I could never go somewhere 'regularly' it would all be once offs.

[Anglo-Irishman]

Meanwhile, I would repeat what another poster said - you have to go through Twinkle Twinkle (or any tune) being boring (because you're still thinking a little about which finger goes where) to the point where it is automatic, you can sing along

That is, if you have no better tunes to learn on.

Why Twinkle? Why are people so obsessed with it? Any French tutor will have tens of simple tunes in Amin, Gmaj, Cmaj, that you can play along the rows or across, as you pleased.

 

Misha,

Don't knock Twinkle!

And forget your French tunes, unless you're French.

What a self-taught beginner needs is tunes that he or she has known inside out since childhood. Not tunes that you have to learn from a tutor, because you have no way of knowing whether you're interpreting the dots correctly.

 

But "Twinkle, twinkle, little star" is actually an excellent beginners' piece, because it is a member of one of those vast families of similar tunes that are so common in traditional nursery rhymes. Compare it with "Baa, baa, black sheep" for instance. Or "Every weekday Mary Jane (seems to have another pain)". These are based on the song "The Battles of Marlborough", I believe, and there's even a French version, whose title I forget, which was used by W.A. Mozart for a divertimento or suchlike.

These familiar tunes sound superficially different, but when you listen more closely, they sound like variations of each other. So if you practise them, you get an idea of what you can change to make things more interesting.

 

@LDT: When you've got "Twinkle" off pat, try "Baa, baa, black sheep". You'll notice that "Twinkle" plods along with every note the same length, whereas "Baa, baa" starts out that way, but changes to double the speed with "... have you any wool?" and later on, there are interesting rhythmic patterns on one note with "...one for the ... Mast-er and ... one for the ... Dame".

 

You could do worse than learn with nursery rhymes

 

Cheers,

John

[LDT]

But "Twinkle, twinkle, little star" is actually an excellent beginners' piece, because it is a member of one of those vast families of similar tunes that are so common in traditional nursery rhymes. Compare it with "Baa, baa, black sheep" for instance. Or "Every weekday Mary Jane (seems to have another pain)". These are based on the song "The Battles of Marlborough", I believe, and there's even a French version, whose title I forget, which was used by W.A. Mozart for a divertimento or suchlike.

These familiar tunes sound superficially different, but when you listen more closely, they sound like variations of each other. So if you practise them, you get an idea of what you can change to make things more interesting.

 

@LDT: When you've got "Twinkle" off pat, try "Baa, baa, black sheep". You'll notice that "Twinkle" plods along with every note the same length, whereas "Baa, baa" starts out that way, but changes to double the speed with "... have you any wool?" and later on, there are interesting rhythmic patterns on one note with "...one for the ... Mast-er and ... one for the ... Dame".

 

You could do worse than learn with nursery rhymes

 

Cheers,

John

When I was little my 'party trick' was to sing Baa baa black sheep and oh I do like to be beside the sea side....the thing is I sung them with a 'd' infront of every word.

e.g. I do di do de bedide the de dide.

lol!

[tombilly]

I've been trying to find ways of combing it with holidays.

 

Well, if it's Irish trad. you like ... you'd do a lot worse than come over to the Willie Clancy week in Miltown Malbay, Co.Clare, usually first week in July. Lots of concerntina classes for all grades for a full week and music coming from everywhere in between. And when you've had enough, you can go for a dip in the ocean.

[Anglo-Irishman]

John, I think we should all preface by saying what kind of instrument we play and what music we play.

Everything I say is with reference to ITM played on the C/G Anglo. English trad music fits quite nicely on the rows.

We have no disagreement.

David,

It is quite sufficient to indicate whether one is talking about the instrument or about a particular musical genre. There is seldom a one-to-one correlation.

 

As far as the concertina not being made for ITM as it is played in the west of Ireland,

my response would be that the keyless flute wasn't made for ITM, nor was the fiddle made for bluegrass.

Or the harmonica for blues.

 

Precisely! In the cases you mention, the instrument did not emerge from the music; the music adopted the instrument, which had already been defined elsewhere. Thus bluegrass does not define the fiddle; blues do not define the harmonica; and ITM does not define the keyless flute any more than it defines the Anglo concertina.

 

The intended purpose is totally irrelevant.

 

Not really! Developments in instruments, and the invention of new instruments like the concertina, occurred in a particular environment at a particular time, and the more complex the instruments were, the more they reflected the style of music prevalent at the time and place of invention.

 

I suppose that Sebastian's comments must be understood in light of his limited understanding of ITM.

And my ignorance be forgiven because I have never played any music on the Anglo other than ITM.

 

Sebastian needs no forgivenness, because he was talking about the concertina as an instrument from a global perspective.

We'll have to think about forgiving you, because holding forth about an instrument whose full capabilities you have never tried to exploit, is ... well ... irresponsible.

You acceptance of along-the-row playing in English music will be regarded as extenauting circumstances.

 

Cheers,

John

[LDT]

I've been trying to find ways of combing it with holidays.

 

Well, if it's Irish trad. you like ... you'd do a lot worse than come over to the Willie Clancy week in Miltown Malbay, Co.Clare, usually first week in July. Lots of concerntina classes for all grades for a full week and music coming from everywhere in between. And when you've had enough, you can go for a dip in the ocean.

I like everything..I have eclectic tastes.

Do you need a passport to go to Ireland?

[Dave Rogers]

Do you need a passport to go to Ireland?

 

I managed to get away without having one the last time I visited (about 5 years ago), but I've been advised that I'd need one if I went now. Security checks have become a lot tougher because of fears about terrorism.

[LDT]

Do you need a passport to go to Ireland?

 

I managed to get away without having one the last time I visited (about 5 years ago), but I've been advised that I'd need one if I went now. Security checks have become a lot tougher because of fears about terrorism.

ah...I don't have a passport

[tombilly]

that could be an unsurmountable hurdle..

[hjcjones]

It is perhaps significant that ITM seems to have a fairly structured way of learning, both through CCE and teachers like Noel Hill who seem to travel the world doing concertina schools. Although there may be some criticism that techniques become standardised, there are at least plenty of opportunities to learn, not only for beginners but also for more advanced players who want to develop.

 

In contrast, those wishing to play "English" style seem to be left to work it out for themselves, often in isolation, with little assistance and not much in the way of teaching materials. Unless you are fortunate enough to live in an area where there is an active group of like-minded players, you're on your own.

 

LDT, I don't know where in Essex you're from. Have you tried Essex Folk News http://efnmagazine.co.uk/ to try to find other players nearby?

[LDT]

It is perhaps significant that ITM seems to have a fairly structured way of learning, both through CCE and teachers like Noel Hill who seem to travel the world doing concertina schools. Although there may be some criticism that techniques become standardised, there are at least plenty of opportunities to learn, not only for beginners but also for more advanced players who want to develop.

 

In contrast, those wishing to play "English" style seem to be left to work it out for themselves, often in isolation, with little assistance and not much in the way of teaching materials. Unless you are fortunate enough to live in an area where there is an active group of like-minded players, you're on your own.

 

LDT, I don't know where in Essex you're from. Have you tried Essex Folk News http://efnmagazine.co.uk/ to try to find other players nearby?

I asked here http://www.talkawhile.co.uk/yabbse/index.p...w;topicseen#new got the same answer

 

There's a poetry club in southend but nothing folky. Nearest thing is http://www.ridgeweb.co.uk/hoy.htm

Edited October 30, 2008 by LDT

[catty]

Why Twinkle?

 

Because it's among the most familar tunes known to mankind. Another common practice in the wide use of common tunes is in ear training where associations with melodies of such tunes are used to develop familiarity with intervals. (e.g., "Twinkle, Twinkle..."-- an intervalic fifth)

Edited October 30, 2008 by catty

[m3838]

Why Twinkle?

 

Because it's among the most familar tunes known to mankind. Another common practice in the wide use of common tunes is in ear training where associations with melodies of such tunes are used to develop familiarity with intervals. (e.g., "Twinkle, Twinkle..."-- an intervalic fifth)

 

Nobody knocks anything. If you like to learn using Starkle Starkle little Twin, it's your choice. Any simple tunes are just equally good.

It's not the matter of knowing the tune before hand. Any simple tune will take two minutes to remember, be it french or any other.

[catty]

Any simple tunes are just equally good.

 

No, they're not...in this case.

 

 

It's not the matter of knowing the tune before hand...

 

Yes, it absolutely is...that's the whole point (in this case).

[tzirtzi]

Not from the point of view of a concertina player but someone who has learned piano by Suzuki method -

 

Twinkles and other very simple very familiar tunes are really useful. They're very easy to get the hang of at the beginning of your learning and then you can modify them. With Suzuki you're encouraged to play Twinkle Twinkle at the beginning of every practice session for a very long time - years into playing, depending on your teacher - but you're shown variations on it. Playing different rhythmic patterns on every note, using it to practice legato and staccato, using it to practice dynamics. Very familiar and easy tunes are both useful for being able to do something quickly at the beginning and, if you keep on using them as a tool, for warming up your fingers at the beginning of a practice session and for practising techniques. All this, as has been said, comes from the fact that they're already familiar melodies so you don't have to think so hard about them.

 

So, LDT, my very small addition to the advice that's been given would be - even when you do advance, don't give up on the tunes you learn at the beginning! They're more useful than they're given credit for.

[m3838]

Any simple tunes are just equally good.

 

No, they're not...in this case.

 

 

It's not the matter of knowing the tune before hand...

 

Yes, it absolutely is...that's the whole point (in this case).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySFmgEBC-tg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVJIrpgHAW8...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXN46t3tjI...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p76Zq_Co7Kw...feature=related

 

So much choice, so easy to learn.

Stick to one you know though. Always.

[PeterT]

So, LDT, my very small addition to the advice that's been given would be - even when you do advance, don't give up on the tunes you learn at the beginning! They're more useful than they're given credit for.

Think I would second that!

 

It's funny that I was not reading ahead on your posting, but my mind was already altering the rhythm and note durations of "Twinkle ....."

 

I've managed to get far enough down the road so that most of my practice is done in my head, but I'm still more than happy to pick up a concertina and play tunes which I learned 25 years ago.