What's The Difference From Wicki And Hayden Layout?

[tony]

A,Bb,B,C,C#,D,Eb,E,F,F#,G,G# etc.

[jjj]

A,Bb,B,C,C#,D,Eb,E,F,F#,G,G# etc.

Thanks tony,

 

...but how to make the note timing ?

[m3838]

A,Bb,B,C,C#,D,Eb,E,F,F#,G,G# etc.

Thanks tony,

 

...but how to make the note timing ?

 

It can be something like, mm... let's see... how about this:

1 A longest, let's call it "Whole tone", and demark it as elongated circle, but not filled with color, can be divided by

2 halfs (call it "half tone" and demark as the "whole tone", but add vertical line to it),

3 then by 4 (call them "Fourh tone" and decode as "half tone", but fill the circle with black ink),

4 than by 8 ("Eighth tone", having a little wiggle, on the vertical line (we can call it "stem", and the wiggle we can call, mm, a "flag", yes)

5 Then "16th tone, just like the 8th, but with two "flags" on "stem".

 

Pretty cool, huh?

[tony]

A,Bb,B,C,C#,D,Eb,E,F,F#,G,G# etc.

Thanks tony,

 

...but how to make the note timing ?

 

 

http://www.walshaw.plus.com/abc/

[jjj]

Sorry, there's some misunderstanding... Let me try again:

 

The idea is to mark the buttons and notes of each octave with the same symbols ...plus add the the traditional notes.

 

That's why I still believe that symbols from PC keyboard, such as the mentioned, diverse brackets [ ], { }, etc. are the easiest to access.

 

These symbols allow us to mark the notes of each octave with five different sets of brackets into which the traditional note value will be inserted.

 

In other words, each bracket set defines to which octave this particular note belongs and the traditional note value inserted between the brackets defines the timing of this note.

 

To simplify the the timing of notes, see this example of Klavarskribo:

Right-hand notes have got their stems going to the right; left-hand notes to the left. The timing of each bar is "obvious"!

Edited April 5, 2008 by jjj

[tony]

Sorry, there's some misunderstanding... Let me try again:

 

The idea is to mark the buttons and notes of each octave with the same symbols ...plus add the the traditional notes.

 

That's why I still believe that symbols from PC keyboard, such as the mentioned, diverse brackets [ ], { }, etc. are the easiest to access.

 

These symbols allow us to mark the notes of each octave with five different sets of brackets into which the traditional note value will be inserted.

 

In other words, each bracket set defines to which octave this particular note belongs and the traditional note value inserted between the brackets defines the timing of this note.

 

But isn't the ABC method of notation doing exactly that?

 

"We now have four octaves at our disposal, which is more than enough for our purposes of notating traditional music:

 

C,D,E,F,G,A,B,CDEFGABcdefgabc'd'e'f'g'a'b'"

Edited April 5, 2008 by tony

[jjj]

C,D,E,F,G,A,B,CDEFGABcdefgabc'd'e'f'g'a'b'"

 

I didn't study this ABC notation in datail, but my first impression is that it's not as visual as Klavarskribo or my notation.

My idea is to create a notation, which visually corresponds to the actual button position/ location.

This ABC notation require lots of button searching and lots more learning and practice. IMHO...

[m3838]

C,D,E,F,G,A,B,CDEFGABcdefgabc'd'e'f'g'a'b'"

 

I didn't study this ABC notation in datail, but my first impression is that it's not as visual as Klavarskribo or my notation.

My idea is to create a notation, which visually corresponds to the actual button position/ location.

This ABC notation require lots of button searching and lots more learning and practice. IMHO...

 

 

 

The idea is futile. Axcept it. You can't make a notation that simultaneously is:

a. visually corresponding to your keyboard

b. sets correct timing and pitch

c. compact and thus useabe

without some learning how to use it. Which time of learning can be spent by learning to read traditional notation system, which is (believe it or not):

a. easy to understand and visually connect to your (and any) keyboard

b. clearly sets pitch and timing

c. compact and thus useable

 

Having said this, why don't you try to:

 

simply print the layout of your keyboard in one or two octaves and put it on sort of paper roll, going sideways, like ancient books.

On this picture you will mark the buttons to be pressed with letters, representing the pitch, using A2, A1, A, a, a', a'' type of symbols, representing the octave.

Then you mark it with bars.

Then you mark individual tones with black ink, and chords or intervals (any button, which suppose to be pressed simultaniously) with red ink.

Then you connect a motor to it and set a speed. You'll have a roll, that will move slowly, allowing you to follow it visually and press correct sequence of buttons. Or just turn it by hand, when you'll be at the end of the part.

 

If you can devise the software/hardware that can read the script - you can have it printed out in any way possible. Or just play it out. But make sure you patent it first, as I understand, there is no such system yet.

[m3838]

All of my suggestions are still futile. The cumbersome and bulky system will only allow to follow single line melody, sorta. For such purpose inexpencive mp3 player will do much better job.

Edited April 5, 2008 by m3838

[jjj]

The idea is futile. Axcept it.

OK, OK... take it easy, for it's just an attempt to find a Klavarskribo style notation to visually align the notes to the actual button location. Beside, look what a professional musician wrote about Klavarskribo and the traditional notation:

Heck, you don’t need to know anything about music to start reading Klavarskribo. Common notation is laden with concepts like “keys” and “sharps” and “flats” and “naturals” and “clefs”. I’ve been playing piano since I was six years old, I have a professional music degree, and I still suspect that I will never completely overcome the cognitive overhead of all these potential combinations and variations that are hard-wired into traditional notation. http://evanlenz.net/blog/2007/11/03/more-t...actoring-music/

Now, after having had a look at the Klavarskribo's timing, I come to realize that their note's value is merely determined by the note's position in the measure... looking far less complicated than traditional notation!

--> If this is the case (and it is!), I don't need to use frames, symbols or traditional note values at all!

Then I only need to insert figures 1 to 5 "as notes" onto the lines in order to indicate in which octave the particular button should be played and beats & bars to indicate the note lengths or beats per measure.. Right?

--> And if that's right, it doesn't really matter whether one applies figures or color to buttons and notes or only show the measure of the first bar or forget about timing altogether (as I prefer). Hence, my Wicki notation can be tailored to personal preference.

Far more important is that it helps traditional notation illiterate hobby musicians (like me!) to learn the Wicki layout and to remember complicated melodies, its sequence and harmonies. Yet, more than anything else...

The greatest benefit of my Wicki notation is that it visually corresponds to the Wicki's button layout, which makes locating the buttons a breeze!

It's for that reason Klavarskribo is such an easiest to learn and read notation. Isn't it amazing that even novices (like me!) can readily read the notation? Sorry, I can't say that from traditional notation ( !! )

See, in this way I gradually arrived at the bottom of the truth about which is the easiest to learn and play keyboard layout and notation. It wasn't easy to work it out straight away, but with a bit of trial & error I usually make it. The same happened to my personal philosophical development. I had to marry trice to get it right. Constructive criticism is always welcome, for it helps us to think harder. To other fora I commended this forum, because thanks to member's experience I was able to resolve my dilemma.

That reminds me of my boss in Germany. He appreciated technical, lateral thinking. Albeit his knowledge of electro-mechanics was far superior to mine, he insisted that I accompany him on crucial decision, insisting that he's able to think better with my presents. On several occasions I was able to outdo his thinking and that was it, I suppose. I regret having had to leave him for Australia.

Here's another concise description of Klavarskribo: http://www.cnkeyboard.com/bbs/archiver/tid-28920.html

 

P.S. Normally, constructive cooperation also includes to acknowledge and "axcept" when something is right... IMHO

Edited April 10, 2008 by jjj

[jjj]

It will be interesting to plug this Wicki keyboard into my Elka E49....

...and play it in all scales as never before! I might even build two Wicki keyboards (for each manual one!)

Thx Mr. Kaspar Wicki !! Why the hell didn't I know about your layout earlier on... in my life?

Edited April 11, 2008 by jjj

[m3838]

I looked at the Klavar description more carefully and it does make sense.

Considering the vast spread of piano and large amount of music already written for it, I can see spending lifetime happily playing from Klavarscribo scores and not bothering by inability to communicate with other musicians. With rare layouts, where you depend on scores written for different instruments, you would still need a hand on traditional notation. You can't just scan the score and have it decoded into Klavarscribo, you have to hand type the score, so you may as well learn it too.

But that Klavarscribo is really a clever one. I don't see how it's possible to use for non-linear layouts though.

I think it may be very useful for flute type instruments as well, esp. with combination with traditional score, gradually transfering all reading to the score, when the mechanics of hole closing is secured, in a year or two. Only for those the notation should be horizontal.

Hmm, I wonder if any music school use it as helping tool for the beginners?

Makes you lazy though.

[jjj]

Thx for informing yourself about Klavarskribo. Now you understand better why I long to create a "Klavarskribo-like" notation for the Wicki. With this notation anyone (w/o notation knowledge, like me) is able to locate the correct button on the Wicki keyboard according to the notes position. That's what's all about!

It's virtual WYSIWYG notation, albeit a bit more complicated than Klavarskribo, but that's the next best thing to it... or do you have a better idea? And now you can also see how much simpler it is to implement timing, as well.

 

Since the truth is independent of public opinion... anything, that works must be logically correct. This fact replaces my lack of Wicki playing experience and offers me certainty of where I'm going. Even then constructive criticism is always welcome, for it offers confirmation or at least helps to clear the fog...

You can't just scan the score and have it decoded into Klavarscribo, you have to hand type the score, so you may as well learn it too.

You can d/l a free program (from Klavarskribo http://www.vdkolk.nl/klavar/download.php?b...klavar-2007-01) for it, which automatically writes any MIDI file into Klavarskribo! That means, it's possible to scan common notation into MIDI and then with the free Klavarskribo program into Klavarscribo notation. Presto!

I don't see how it's possible to use for non-linear layouts though.

True, it's only suited for keyboards and that includes button keyboards (with some minor adaptations).

I think it may be very useful for flute type instruments as well, esp. with combination with traditional score, gradually transferring all reading to the score, when the mechanics of hole closing is secured, in a year or two.

Well, that's where your ingenuity is called upon! You gave me a hard time to approve my innovative Wicki notation and now it's your turn... to prove your inventor spirit. I didn't model it too badly on Kavarskribo, didn't I? You might have some some good ideas of how to even improve it.

Hmm, I wonder if any music school use it as helping tool for the beginners?

Forget convincing music teachers and conservatories... for they are far more interested in procrastinating the learning process to make a fortune than helping students.

 

Makes you lazy though.

All depends on which melody you play... "Tico-Tico", Monti's "Tzardash" or Mozart's "Rondo A LA Turca" keeps you on your toes!

Edited April 15, 2008 by jjj

[ragtimer]

It will be interesting to plug this Wicki keyboard into my Elka E49....

...and play it in all scales as never before! I might even build two Wicki keyboards (for each manual one!)

Love those Hammond drawbars! Will be neat to get a growling B3 sound thru a W/H keyboard.

Thx Mr. Kaspar Wicki !! Why the hell didn't I know about your layout earlier on... in my life?

Really ... you should be thanking Brian Hayden for the fact that you or anyone of us knows about it at all!

 

PS: I have an acoustic W/H instrument design up my sleeve, but will hack some prototyping before I say more.

--Mike K.

[jjj]

... you should be thanking Brian Hayden

It's hard to do, because Kaspar created the same layout in last century and Brian this century. So, Kaspar comes first and Brian second (or was it Kaspar, Melchior & Balthazar?). Of course at Kaspar's time the Internet and puter, wasn't invented, yet.

Jeez, it's gett'n tough! I already thanked all you expert members. So, all of you should come third and I'll be last ...and the last will be first; according to the Bible!

 

Beside, at first I wanted to sell my Elka E49 organ, but with Wicki Kbd. plug-in I'll enjoy it more than ever before! It's quite a professional instrument with 9 voices under each key and 2 independent generators (sine wave & square wave with flute filters) solo instruments, great strings with special chorus, orchestration presets, 64 accompaniment modes (programmable), great reverb, Lesley, 5 speakers etc, weighing 100kg (220.25 lbs) ! New price was $Aus7000 = $US 6500, but I bought it 2nd hand for only $A 400 = $US 370 some 10 years ago and shipped it to Chile. I got all the circuit schematics and vital spare parts for it, can alter and repair the whole thing, but so far didn't have a problem with it!

Edited April 17, 2008 by jjj

[m3838]

You can type in ABC format or in standard notation using programs like Finale Notepad (free) and play MIDI. For this you do need to know standard notation or ABC.

But if you have paper score - you can't take it into Klavarscribo.

Yet.

But you can buy lots and lots of music, already decoded in Klavarscribo.

I don't believe that aforementioned notation is for replacing standard on the wrong premise that the latter is difficult to read. A tablature is not a substitute for learning, it's a helping tool.

I also don't thing your accusation of greedy music "establishment" is correct. Concervatory is not a place to learn notation, those pupils sight read with ease just to be accepted. Esp. considering they have to study harmony, musical literature, two instruments. And they are not very rich.

Klavarscribo looks like very clever alternative to sight reading for amateurs.

And it's not designed only for piano, but any linear keyboard.

But I'm very curious of why you refuse to figure out standard notation? It's not that difficult. And it will give you all the printed music.

Look, even I figured it out. Not all of it's scribbles and squiggles, but enough so I can learn a piece of music.

[jjj]

Since most of you are accomplished Musos, I might have a chance to find out what button keyboard layout these virtuosos are playing. Is it the C-system, the B-system or a Bayan ?? (It surely is not the Wicki layout.)

 

 

[Boney]

Those are both C-system. You can tell by the angle of the diagonals.