Jump to content

‘Thin’ Sounding 4R Push


Recommended Posts

I have made enough progress in my early learning that I am learning a tune requiring the high c note at push 4 on the right of my brand new Minstrel. It sounds a bit thin to my ears - not as loud or as responsive as the lower notes of the instrument. If I pump the bellows a bit more forcefully it will ring out ok, but I am wondering if this is symptomatic of all concertinas, a reflection of my instrument being of lower cost and therefore less responsive than a higher grade instrument, or something I should have checked out by Smythes Accordion Center where I bought it. The man who sold me the instrument said he checked it upon arrival to insure all was in working order so I expect things havent changed much in the few weeks Ive owned it. I am certain this would be a warranty repair if any adjustments are needed. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by lukmanohnz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

High notes do tend to sound thinner, but I would not expect that any individual note should be of significantly different quality than the neighboring notes just above and below it.

 

How does this high C note on the RH push button 4 (on the C-row) compare to the sound of the same note when played on the RH pull button 8 (on the G-row) ? Small differences shouldn't alarm you, but if the quality of the sound is noticeably different between these two ways of playing the same note, that would be a clue that the one note you highlighted needs attention.

 

I'm no expert on concertina repair, and don't know your instrument! So hopefully this test will help with the diagnosis, but others will then need to help decide what might need to be done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

High notes do tend to sound thinner, but I would not expect that any individual note should be of significantly different quality than the neighboring notes just above and below it.

 

How does this high C note on the RH push button 4 (on the C-row) compare to the sound of the same note when played on the RH pull button 8 (on the G-row) ? Small differences shouldn't alarm you, but if the quality of the sound is noticeably different between these two ways of playing the same note, that would be a clue that the one note you highlighted needs attention.

 

I'm no expert on concertina repair, and don't know your instrument! So hopefully this test will help with the diagnosis, but others will then need to help decide what might need to be done.

Thank you for that idea Ted. I checked this evening. The RH pull 8 and push 4 are qualitatively similar, though the pull 8 is slightly more responsive and open than the push 4. It's as if the vibrations of the reed are starting with less effort on the pull 8 vs. the push 4. I don't think it's enough of an issue that I'm willing to drive all the way back to Oakland at this point, but perhaps if someday I need to bring it in for service at a later date I'll have it checked out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently upgraded from my Stagi 30-button to a Dallas-Crabb 30-button. Though I was quite content with the Stagi in the middle range, where I play most of my melodies, it was a bit thin up top, and the traditional-reeded Crabb does have more "presence" in the upper end of the range. Most likely that's the difference between hybrids and traditional Anglos.

 

Cheers,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On a related note, I recently got a new hybrid. It plays like a dream, but I've noticed that the push C5 (right hand index finger) doesn't seem as 'clean' as the notes around it - like the overtones are stronger. Actually, the C# has a similar quality to it, which makes me wonder if it's just some combination of the pitch and the location of the reeds (which are right next to each other) in the instrument that's emphasizing certain frequencies, but now that I've noticed it, it's annoying me a little, and I'm not hearing it in any of the other surrounding notes. Is that a common sort of thing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also just discovered that the RH push 10 makes no sound at all. RH pull 10 is fine. I expect this is a rarely-used note but still mildly frustrated by this behavior on a brand new instrument. Is it typical for these issues to arise during a new concertinas break-in period? Are the adjustments to correct them commonly done by the player or at a repair shop? (I thought I had tested every note on both sides in both directions upon first acquiring the instrument so I do believe this is a change, and I have barely touched that particular button during my early learning.)

Edited by lukmanohnz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Generally, diagnosis and simple repairs can be done by the player, rather than going to the trouble of taking the instrument to a repair shop. You can gain a greater appreciation for the instrument in the process, and the experience can serve you well to allow quick repairs if needed in the future, so you have a chance to get the instrument back in at least serviceable order if anything happens during a musical occasion when you don't want to wait to go to a repair shop.

 

You might find it useful to obtain a copy of David Elliot's book on concertina repair. Most of the example photos are of antique instruments with concertina reeds, rather than hybrids, and many are of the English layout rather than Anglo, but that doesn't matter much at all. Really quite a lot of it would apply to your instrument.

 

Of course, if you are unsure about anything, it would be wise to at least talk with a repair shop, or the store where this was purchased, particularly since this is a new instrument where a warranty would likely apply.

 

If you are reasonably certain that the silent note did previously sound, then it is likely that the problem is a tiny bit of fluff or debris caught on the edge of the reed. The clearance around the reed is very small indeed, and doesn't take much to stop the sound. If this was mine, I would try to check that first.

 

First you have to get to the reed though! To do that:

1) undo the adjustment screw holding the leather strap on that end.

2) carefully remove the 6 screws holding that end on. Be sure you have a very good quality small screwdriver to fit the screw slots, as you don't want to mess up the slots on the screws. You'll be glad of this small investment! I suggest loosening each of the six screws slightly, before fully loosening or removing any one of them. Place these where you won't lose them! I generally push them through a piece of scrap paper so they can't roll away, but that is also because I have two antique instruments and I want to try to put the same screw back in the same hole, just in case they aren't identical. That ought not to be an issue for your instrument.

3) make a note of the orientation of the filigree end cover, and then remove it.

4) note which hole the pad and lever are lifted off when you push the button for the note you are interested in.

5) make a note of the orientation of the action board, with all the buttons and levers, and carefully remove it.

6) note which set of reeds were beneath the hole identified above. The offending reed will be one of these two, possibly on the underside of the reed pan.

7) make a note of the orientation of the reed pan and lift if out, if needed.

 

8) Even if there is debris caught in the reed, it may be so small that you can't see it. To clear the reed, you can slip a piece of paper under the reed and move it carefully about. Don't bend the reed though, and don't try to pry out anything with even a jeweler's screwdriver. You can also try blowing sharply on the reed by mouth, from both sides. I would probably do both just in case, particularly if I couldn't see anything wrong. However, I would not try to do anything that disturbs the reeds more than that. If more is required then it is time to call in a professional, or at least come here and ask more questions.

 

So now it is time to reassemble, in approximately the reverse order:

9) Carefully align and replace the reed pan in the same orientation as before. If you get the position wrong here, nothing will work correctly when fully assembled, or the two ends will be at different angles!

10) Carefully align the action board in the same orientation as before, replacing it with the holes over the correct sets of reeds.

11) Carefully align the filigree end cover as before. This will take some effort to get all the buttons into all of the holes at the same time. Holding the instrument up so that the buttons hang down helps to keep them aligned, and then you can put the end into place from below. But even that doesn't always quite work, so I generally get as many as I can lined up, push the cover on just a little so the buttons that do line up start to show through the holes, and then gently push any reluctant buttons into place one at a time with the end of a jeweler's screwdriver stuck in from the side.

12) replace the 6 screws that hold on the end. Don't overtighten these! I suggest just getting each one started for few threads, not tightening them at all. Then gradually go around several times and tighten them a each a little, progressing in a star pattern, much as you might when tightening lug nuts on a car wheel.

13) replace the screw holding the end of the leather strap.

 

Now you are ready to test to see if this helped. (and if you made any mistakes.)

I suppose that may sound like quite a bit, but really it doesn't take all that long, once you are used to it.

 

Again, if that doesn't do it, then it is time for consultation with a professional.

 

If it was a bit of fluff, you might someday consider installing a bit of fine screen or thin open cloth behind the ends, to catch any bits of fluff that might try to get in next time. some instruments have this and some don't (some antique instruments actually have fine goat's leather baffles that the air has to get around, but that is another matter)

 

Good luck!

Edited by Tradewinds Ted
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Generally, diagnosis and simple repairs can be done by the player,

 

Wow Ted!

 

What a delightful and detailed description of what I do every few weeks or months (or years if lucky). Often It's just a matter of cleaning the offending reeds with paper as you suggest to make them play cleanly and in tune. I prefer paper money for this task. The bigger the denomination the better. $100 dollar bills tend to be crisper and cleaner than ones.

 

Instruments with proper concertina reeds in shoes and slots will afford better access, whereas the waxed in reeds or reeds on a zinc plate can be harder to get to. Still, the process is the same. Find the guilty reed and gently mess with it to clear the obstruction be it fluff or corrosion. This fixes 99% of the problems.

 

As for the OP thin high reed sound. Don't worry too much about it. Someday you might get a better instrument... which will have it's own idiiosyncrasies. The concertina is a gathering of idiophones and though makers try to get the instrument to sound like one thing, that is an illusion or perhaps a goal, depending.

 

Although you can clearly hear that the harmonics, volume and timbre are alarmingly different for your problem note... it is very likely that you are the only one who hears it. If you could step away from your instrument while playing it, the sound would get all mushed up by the environment and the offensiveness of those misguided reeds would pretty much disappear. Remarkably, he concertina sounds quite different to the player than to the audience.

 

Try recording yourself and listen to the result and you will likely hear what I'm talking about. Or perhaps not, as every instrument is different.

 

As always, the performance of your music trancends whatever piece of junk you are playing on. The energy you give to it is the conduit of your soul and the instrument is secondary.

Edited by Jody Kruskal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Generally, diagnosis and simple repairs can be done by the player, rather than going to the trouble of taking the instrument to a repair shop. You can gain a greater appreciation for the instrument in the process, and the experience can serve you well to allow quick repairs if needed in the future, so you have a chance to get the instrument back in at least serviceable order if anything happens during a musical occasion when you don't want to wait to go to a repair shop.

 

You might find it useful to obtain a copy of David Elliot's book on concertina repair. Most of the example photos are of antique instruments with concertina reeds, rather than hybrids, and many are of the English layout rather than Anglo, but that doesn't matter much at all. Really quite a lot of it would apply to your instrument.

 

Of course, if you are unsure about anything, it would be wise to at least talk with a repair shop, or the store where this was purchased, particularly since this is a new instrument where a warranty would likely apply.

 

If you are reasonably certain that the silent note did previously sound, then it is likely that the problem is a tiny bit of fluff or debris caught on the edge of the reed. The clearance around the reed is very small indeed, and doesn't take much to stop the sound. If this was mine, I would try to check that first.

 

First you have to get to the reed though! To do that:

1) undo the adjustment screw holding the leather strap on that end.

2) carefully remove the 6 screws on holding that end on. Be sure you have a very good quality small screwdriver to fit the screw slots, as you don't want to mess up the slots on the screws. You'll be glad of this small investment! I suggest loosening each of the six screws slightly, before fully loosening or removing any one of them. Place these where you won't lose them! I generally push them through a piece of scrap paper so they can't roll away, but that is also because I have two antique instruments and I want to try to put the same screw back in the same hole, just in case they aren't identical. That ought not to be an issue for your instrument.

3) make a note of the orientation of the filigree end cover, and then remove it.

4) note which hole the pad and lever are lifted off when you push the button for the note you are interested in.

5) make a note of the orientation of the action board, with all the buttons and levers, and carefully remove it.

6) note which set of reeds were beneath the hole identified above. The offending reed will be one of these two, possibly on the underside of the reed pan.

7) make a note of the orientation of the reed pan and lift if out, if needed.

 

8) Even if there is debris caught in the reed, it may be so small that you can't see it. To clear the reed, you can slip a piece of paper under the reed and move it carefully about. Don't bend the reed though, and don't try to pry out anything with even a jeweler's screwdriver. You can also try blowing sharply on the reed by mouth, from both sides. I would probably do both just in case, particularly if I couldn't see anything wrong. However, I would not try to do anything that disturbs the reeds more than that. If more is required then it is time to call in a professional, or at least come here and ask more questions.

 

So now it is time to reassemble, in approximately the reverse order:

9) Carefully align and replace the reed pan in the same orientation as before. If you get the position wrong here, nothing will work correctly when fully assembled, or the two ends will be at different angles!

10) Carefully align the action board in the same orientation as before, replacing it with the holes over the correct sets of reeds.

11) Carefully align the filigree end cover as before. This will take some effort to get all the buttons into all of the holes at the same time. Holding the instrument up so that the buttons hang down helps to keep them aligned, and then you can put the end into place from below. But even that doesn't always quite work, so I generally get as many as I can lined up, push the cover on just a little so the buttons that do line up start to show through the holes, and then gently push any reluctant buttons into place one at a time with the end of a jeweler's screwdriver stuck in from the side.

12) replace the 6 screws that hold on the end. Don't overtighten these! I suggest just getting each one started for few threads, not tightening them at all. Then gradually go around several times and tighten them a each a little, progressing in a star pattern, much as you might when tightening lug nuts on a car wheel.

13) replace the screw holding the end of the leather strap.

 

Now you are ready to test to see if this helped. (and if you made any mistakes.)

I suppose that may sound like quite a bit, but really it doesn't take all that long, once you are used to it.

 

Again, if that doesn't do it, then it is time for consultation with a professional.

 

If it was a bit of fluff, you might someday consider installing a bit of fine screen or thin open cloth behind the ends, to catch any bits of fluff that might try to get in next time. some instruments have this and some don't (some antique instruments actually have fine goat's leather baffles that the air has to get around, but that is another matter)

 

Good luck!

Thanks so much for this detailed reply and all the great advice. I think I'll open 'er up this weekend - it will be fascinating to see inside in any case, and if I am unable to resolve the silent reed I am sure I'll be able to have it serviced under warranty by the store where I purchased it (they are an authorized dealer).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Generally, diagnosis and simple repairs can be done by the player,

 

Wow Ted!

 

What a delightful and detailed description of what I do every few weeks or months (or years if lucky). Often It's just a matter of cleaning the offending reeds with paper as you suggest to make them play cleanly and in tune. I prefer paper money for this task. The bigger the denomination the better. $100 dollar bills tend to be crisper and cleaner than ones.

 

Instruments with proper concertina reeds in shoes and slots will afford better access, whereas the waxed in reeds or reeds on a zinc plate can be harder to get to. Still, the process is the same. Find the guilty reed and gently mess with it to clear the obstruction be it fluff or corrosion. This fixes 99% of the problems.

 

As for the OP thin high reed sound. Don't worry too much about it. Someday you might get a better instrument... which will have it's own idiiosyncrasies. The concertina is a gathering of idiophones and though makers try to get the instrument to sound like one thing, that is an illusion or perhaps a goal, depending.

 

Although you can clearly hear that the harmonics, volume and timbre are alarmingly different for your problem note... it is very likely that you are the only one who hears it. If you could step away from your instrument while playing it, the sound would get all mushed up by the environment and the offensiveness of those misguided reeds would pretty much disappear. Remarkably, he concertina sounds quite different to the player than to the audience.

 

Try recording yourself and listen to the result and you will likely hear what I'm talking about. Or perhaps not, as every instrument is different.

 

As always, the performance of your music trancends whatever piece of junk you are playing on. The energy you give to it is the conduit of your soul and the instrument is secondary.

 

Thanks for your comments, Jody. I am enjoying learning about all these idiosyncrasies of the concertina. Hearing that these silent reed issues are not uncommon, easily resolved (I hope!) and just a normal part of concertina ownership is helpful to understand. I'll take your lighthearted summary in the spirit it was offered - though I must say this is one of the most expensive pieces of junk I've ever owned!

Edited by lukmanohnz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

What a delightful and detailed description of what I do every few weeks or months (or years if lucky). Often It's just a matter of cleaning the offending reeds with paper as you suggest to make them play cleanly and in tune. I prefer paper money for this task. The bigger the denomination the better. $100 dollar bills tend to be crisper and cleaner than ones.

Better still, write a cheque for $200. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Success! Ted's highly detailed instructions were extremely helpful and I was able to open up the RH end of my Minstrel and carefully clean the edges of the silent reed with a one dollar bill (no Hamiltons or Grants in my wallet right now - and the only Lincolns were well worn). Reassembly was the only big challenge - it's very difficult to get all those buttons lined up with the holes in the end plate. After struggling a few times without managing to get every button in place, I cut little bits of Post-It, wrapped them into tubes and put the sticky ends of these paper tubes onto the buttons that were the most reluctant to align. Then I could pre-load these into their mating holes before lowering the end plate over the remaining buttons. Once the plate was in place the bits of Post-It popped off easily and I completed the reassembly. And now all the reeds sound out clearly. Quite pleased with myself - back to practicing!

 

Here's a photo showing the exposed action board with the bits of Post-It on the errant buttons. How do other folks deal with this fiddly bit of the reassembly process?

post-11374-0-12885400-1522535230_thumb.jpg

Edited by lukmanohnz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll take your lighthearted summary in the spirit it was offered - though I must say this is one of the most expensive pieces of junk I've ever owned!

 

Michael - glad to hear that you are getting on with your Anglo. I think you misunderstood me. I was not suggesting that your new Minstrel is junk. Not at all. I had a look on-line and it seems like a fine box. Rather, I was recalling the many times I have picked up a junker in a shop and although the quality and condition was poor, I could still get music to come out!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I'll take your lighthearted summary in the spirit it was offered - though I must say this is one of the most expensive pieces of junk I've ever owned!

 

Michael - glad to hear that you are getting on with your Anglo. I think you misunderstood me. I was not suggesting that your new Minstrel is junk. Not at all. I had a look on-line and it seems like a fine box. Rather, I was recalling the many times I have picked up a junker in a shop and although the quality and condition was poor, I could still get music to come out!

 

I took no offense, Jody - I understood that your tongue was planted firmly in cheek.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How do other folks deal with this fiddly bit of the reassembly process?

I try to get as many as possible to stand up straight beforehand so they locate in the holes, then while applying light downward pressure on the end I nudge the remaining ones into their holes using a screwdriver poked under the end plate from the side. You get the knack with practice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...